PTR changes: my fixes to them

The biggest issues with the PTR changes are

  1. Liberator change is a massive buff.
  2. Selling turrets is going to cause some dumb turtle strategies where Terran sells all turrets to do gigantic end game doom pushes.
  3. Zerg are getting a lot of buffs when they should be getting more nerfs.
  4. Protoss is getting nerfed in the early, mid and late game with side-grades instead of buffs.

My fixes to start would be this:

Reduce Liberator’s radius increase to 35% in the PTR
Remove selling Missile Turrets. Leave selling Sensor towers with the sensor tower nerfs.

Remove Hatchery cost reduction.
Remove Spine Crawler buff.
Remove additional damage on Spore Crawlers and increase their range by 1 instead. Keep the 300 health on PTR though.

Allow Adepts to attack air units. No upgrade required.
Remove all armor unit type tags from shielded Protoss units except the shield tag. Once shields are depleted then the Protoss unit’s unit type tags will apply.

The Adept change is to give Protoss a way to handle Liberators since you can’t really flank them anymore.

The shield type change gives Protoss back some of their power by making them immune to being type countered until their shields are removed which helps offset the absolute hell that’s going to happen without a Shield Overcharge to hold off timing attacks.

Overall I like the ideas of the patch. Lots of QoL improvements but the implementation lacks consideration for the state of the game.

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Honestly removing this but keeping the queen nerf just feels like a spite change at this point

2 Likes

The hatchery cost provides no real value outside of proxy hatcheries. Over the course of a game you get, what, 200 minerals, maybe 300 off the savings and 25 minerals per hatch doesn’t really impact timings all too much. That’s literally margin of error territory.

Assuming you mean area, the radius increase would only be 0.8 at that rate. I don’t think the Liberator changes would go through. A 35% radius increase would be higher than the proposed 6.25.

This suggestion is completely unreasonable. Either Protoss shields would have to be nerfed across the board, or many units would need shield damage bonuses on top of their other damage. You also can’t balance such a mechanic with Shield Batteries.

I frankly don’t see salvaging Missile Turrets as a problem.

Those changes are all compensation for the Queen nerf. I assume that if the Hatchery and Spine Crawler changes are reverted, the Queen nerfs won’t go through either.

The Spore Crawler health change in particular is to prevent the damage change from over-buffing late-game turtling. The 33% damage increase and 25% health reduction (both 4/3 3/4 ratios) are intended to cancel out. So, if you take out the damage increase, you probably can’t justify the hit point decrease, or at least you can’t reduce it by as much.

That one should be fine.

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The one that has no real reason to exist would be fine :smiley:
I don’t understand how Adepts would help vs Libs where Stalkers wouldn’t

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In the past I would have agreed but without Shield Overcharge you can’t really abuse this too badly. I mean is there really an instance where this would become a problem for TvP or ZvP?

TvP would see mass marauder get hurt and cyclones would be a lot less useful at holding things like proxy void ray but neither of those are really large considerations imo. Mass marauder could use some indirect toning down especially if Disruptors can’t 1 shot them anymore and proxy void ray gets beat by Marines and Marines don’t care about typing at all.

In ZvP they don’t really have a lot of hard counter type interactions that go off a lot to begin with and the few they do have get offset by the Immortal and Disruptor nerfs imo.

In PvP it’s nothing but upsides since no more trolling one another with Disruptor/Stalker or mass Adepts, etc.

Why does Zerg need compensation for the queen nerf? I mean you could make a case for needing better AA, that’s fair and a spore crawler range increase imo should be on the table…but why does the hatchery need to be cheaper and why does the spine need a buff? If a Zerg is using spines as clutch defense they’ve already lost the game…it doesn’t make any sense to buff them when queens anti ground damage wasn’t even what they did that held ground (it’s transfuse).

It lets Protoss deal with mutas and phoenix more easily. Also helps with super liberators by shading under the Liberator.

Just because you can’t see a use doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

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I can’t see either liberator change going through; the area increase is huge (though your proposal would actually be even bigger, not smaller since you’re talking radius not area), in tandem with the smart servos is kinda nuts - of the two smart servos is the smaller one.

Selling turrets isn’t going to effect that much tbh. If anything it’s much more likely to be used around low econ situations when you’re running out of money.

Why? They’re not particularly OP right now. Ultra pathing fix and microbial shroud changes should have always been a thing too.

Removing both of these while still nerfing the queen is, IMO, pretty stupid. The cost of the queen adds up pretty quickly when you’re making multiple queens for creep spread and inject, so massing queens is less viable for defense as it is. However, with less queens, Zerg will need something to help with early defense, which is why spines got a buff to 30 damage flat, rather than 25+5. Spines aren’t so strong that you can turtle with them though.

The hatch cost reduction helps keep the timing of metabolic boost alongside the first queen so the timing of that doesn’t change to much; it will change if this doesn’t go through, and it will mean even one reaper/adept is much more likely to do damage.

300 HP nerf is fine, not sure about removing the damage increase though; particularly for dealing with interceptors and early oracles with the additional energy from energy overcharge.

No. This would cause so many issues. If this was an upgrade, maybe. Having it straight though would be problematic especially for Zerg when dealing with the shade on top of that. Killing drones is one thing, but given the way shade operates you’re effectively putting the adept in 2 places at once, and never having to take a bad fight ever. Since half of those fights are in the main base where many overlords often are, this basically guarantees overlords dying on top of the drone deaths that already occur.

I’m not even sure what it would do vs Terran either, but frankly this just sounds like a terrible idea without an upgrade.

Liberators still require Advanced Balistics. Until that’s researched, libs aren’t an issue, and you still have blink stalkers to deal with them. Once AB is out, Tempests should be the main unit to handle them anyway which got buffed, so adepts shouldn’t need to handle them in the first place.

Absolutely not. The number of things this would force rebalancing on would be insane, and the issues this would cause would be catastrophic.

The game is literally balanced around the tags; making those tags completely worthless until shields are down would directly impact every unit in the game that has some sort of bonus, and would likely necessitate +shield damage on the majority of the units in the game.

And while I see where you’re coming from with relation to shield overcharge’s removal, it would completely ruin literally everything else vs Protoss. Hard, hard no.

Protoss being weaker at pro level, and Protoss being extremely powerful on ladder; being anywhere between 40-50% of GM in each region is generally not a good look. Protoss also leads both vs Zerg and vs Terran, and is basically guaranteed to win after 10-14 minutes depending on if it’s vs Zerg or vs Terran, with 60+% win rate after 10 minutes last I checked, and around 48-52% prior to the 10 minute mark.

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It’s a 3 range unit. IDK what you want here lol. It only matters vs air that refuses to move from shades.

Leaving the queen nerf in place, but removing the hatch buff would leave zerg open to things like reaper harass for longer, not much longer, but we can surely both agree that even a second is a long time in SC2.

If you want to suggest a real queen change, I’m all ears, but it just being out straight up later isn’t the way to go about it.

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Not sure I follow on your liberator point, arent radius and area inherently linked?

Keep in mind that the formula for the area of a circle is pi * r^2

If you increase the radius by a factor, then the area is increased by the square of that factor.
If you increase the area by a factor, then the radius is increased by the square root of that factor.

A 35% radius increase would be a radius of 6.75, and the area would be increased by 82.25%.

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Makes sense. Geometry was never my strong point. Always more of an algebra guy lol