upgrade should be 100/100
And you can choose not to do it and have them operate as usual… (more flexibility, maybe you prefer that over the idle workers)
Nah, you’re probably going to see this upgrade every game, but most likely after the tech of choice or timing of choice hits. It’s a pretty good upgrade to have if it was ever implemented. It’d be silly not to have it.
This makes worker harass in TvP more effective against protoss, not less.
This is the most delusional response from a zerg apologist who clearly does not understand balance issues at pro level.
Do you seriously believe that HerO who is the best protoss player atm is worse than all those terrans and zergs ? What about period prior to many protoss players leaving the game : Zest, Trap, Stats being in good shape etc. they still struggled to win premier tournaments.
Zerg has been imbalanced at pro level the entirety of LOTV ladder, (maybe only having small problems at the beginning of LOTV due to things like tankivacs for example), and this was never changed. Yet zerg apologists like you keep screaming “It’s only Serral !”.
But frankly what do you expect if game is balanced by warcraft 3 team (a.k.a. “Town hall guy”). Keep throwing some pseudo-statistical tools at me - your’re not gonna convince anyone with half a brain. People watch pro scene and they take conclusions.
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Anyone with eyes can see it. Top protoss will have such poor multitasking that they will use 1 hotkey and lose 4 oracles in a single game. Imagine if a zerg rushed out 4 mutas for the same timings, and lost all 4 mutas. Zerg, doing that, would have a 0.0% win-rate. Protoss are able to punch deep in tournaments, with terrible play, because Protoss is imbalanced. It’s really quite simple.
Initially the balance counsel thought they could buff protoss to where it could beat serral, and also fix the balance issues associated with protoss, but top protoss have shown that what happens in the pro scene is 100% a skill issue. Balance favors protoss and these protoss search high and low to find a way to lose, and that’s not something that can be fixed with a balance patch. They have an 11% winrate lead in PvZ in grandmaster, 40% of GM slots, and roughly 40% of all tournament wins; let serral have his premier wins, he clearly deserves them, and fix protoss on the ladder (for crying out loud).
I realise you’re not talking to me specifically, but I’m answering anyway. Honestly speaking, yes I do, purely off the basis that HerO, even as good as he is, is so drastically inconsistent that he can’t be considered as good as Serral/Maru/Reynor/Clem/Dark. You even agreed with the sentiment in the thread I linked earlier.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/katowice-the-protoss-just-plain-suck/28035/4
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Terran ? How is Terran more mobile than Zerg ?
Yeah this tournament HerO played really poorly and deserved to be eliminated, but last year he finished 3rd remember ?
Inconsistency is one thing but overall skill is another. HerO and MaxPax are the only two protosses capable of competing against top zergs at pro level. Sadly MaxPax doesn’t play offline tournaments so we have yet to see his performance but currently MaxPax is 7.2 rank 1 GM on EU ladder which kind of indicates his potential.
How is protoss imbalanced ? At least at pro level ? Maybe on your scrub M2/M1 it is imbalanced because you’re losing to skytoss every game which infuriates you, but you can’t say protoss is imbalanced when all protosses get eliminated in group stage and only two make it playoffs. Meanwhile zerg is ravaging premier tournaments and zergs apologists keep shouting:
“It’s only Serral”. Seriously this is boring.
In order to nerf zerg we don’t need hammer nerfs - just small tweaks here and there. Personally i think that zerg should not be allowed ling speed at hatchery level. Speedlings are so fast that you forget to raise depo/put an adept in wall-in - you instantly lose the game. Protoss is literally contained in his own base and cannot move out. Stargate opener is the only viable strategy vs zerg because of speedlings and later lurkers. Do you realize that ? How can protoss contest zerg ground army if force fields are destroyed by ravagers, banes decimate zealots/adepts and lurkers shred entire protoss army (even immortals) Not even you can be this delusional.
And i say that as terran.
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I do remember. But it’s that inconsistency that means I can’t say he’s on the level of the other players. While they too have their own inconsistencies (Maru in particular has had times where he has some confusing moments), they’re often fewer and further between than HerO does, who is so inconsistent to the point that it makes you legitimately question who is actually playing.
His inconsistency is literally on a game-by-game basis. At his best, he’s definitely capable of beating those players. At his worst, he looks like a diamond league player in both decision making and macro/micro. He has the highest highs, and the lowest lows, but where Maru’s highs are absolutely incredible, Maru’s lows don’t drag him down anywhere nearly as much or as badly as HerO’s own low points do.
I’ve often said that MaxPax is one of the few Protoss who is consistently good and would love to see him do more than just his online victories/qualifications. The sad reality is that he actively refuses to participate offline, even when he qualifies and he/his team gets fined for it each time he pulls out (according to ZG and a few others that have spoken on the topic). That he still does it, or has his team pay for it, is incredibly confusing to me.
This would be a disaster change IMO because of how vulnerable that would make Zerg players to Reaper openings - it would ultimately end the game very, very poorly and Zerg would take a very sharp and sudden decline in winrates almost across the board, not just at pro level. Byun/Maru’s 2 rax reaper would become standard in the matchup (and to some extent is already extremely common as a macro opener), and frankly would straight up kill Zerg players in many cases.
This I agree with, though most Protoss players seem to have it out over TvP which is more confusing to me, though don’t get me wrong, Protoss has issues there too.
The only other opener that used to be viable was the Prism/Archon opener that is literally never seen anymore, and that makes me sad, cause it was a nice little way for Protoss players to show some sort of multi-tasking skill with pickup/drop harass while macroing back home. Changes to the queen, as well as pickup range (to be fair 6 pickup range was absurd), ultimately made this go the way of the dodo, but that paired with other Protoss nerfs have left them in the gutter.
Ravagers specifically need changes to make FF more useable against Zerg as once Ravagers are on the field sentries become almost entirely useless, which Protoss desperately need against Slings and Banes, which otherwise annihilate Protoss units.
And Mutas; Protoss has an even harder time vs Mutas than Terran ever had, since their only actual answer to them is phoenix which you can’t really tech into retroactively, and Archons, which can never actively deal with Mutas or even put pressure on them.
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~69/31 pvz winrate in gm, which should be 50/50. It’s statistically impossible for protoss to have those kinds of winrates without having an advantage in tge matchup. Thats is why there are only two kinds of people on earth: those who know protoss is advantaged in pvz, and those who don’t understand 6th grade math.
https://i.imgur.com/RMJlbKU.png
I did this without using anti air in ZvZ (lmao) and doing macro swarmhosts vs terran. Vs Protoss I have to play “for realz” - there is no way to make meme builds work with the advantage that toss has right now.
No anti air vs zerg is pretty easy. You just go 2 base nydus and keep him busy with the swarm hosts on the left then the right then the left then the right. While you do this you go up to hive. You research carapace upgrades along the way. By the time the mutas have stabilized, you will have about 10 full armor ultras charging across the map. If he does get pushy with the mutas you just make vipers and spores before the ultras. It’s a piece of cake. It’s the funniest thing. The mutas finally get to attack and they are instantly hit with several parasitic bombs and die.
Love people who think they know better than the literal best pro player out there right now. I’m convinced! Totally unrelated to this topic; mind showing us ur MMR?
If you used the IQR test, aka what they teach in 6th grade math, you’d know that pro players are the definition of irrelevant when it comes to balance discussions. Outliers of outliers don’t represent balance. For a correlation to be valid, it has to affect the group as a whole minus the 1% most extreme outliers. Pro players wouldn’t make that cut – not by a large margin. Balance the game around the player base, and let the pro players bypass any issues using their skill (that’s literally what they are paid for).
Yet most of the balance changes in this game are made because of what happens at the pro level. Always has been. Which means the very basic math model you tried to apple here… doesn’t apply to this situation.
Nice try tho!
Btw seeing as you know everything better than the pros (than yet somehow turn out to be wrong anyway) why didn’t u answer the MMR question? Very interesting.
Yep, that’s the issue. They nerfed zerg so that the outlier of outliers would lose a best of 7. Did they accomplish that? Nope, he still wins every tournament. But what they did accomplish is that they deleted zerg from the ladder. SC2 is a case study in exactly why you can’t base decisions around outliers.
At least ur willing to admit you’re simply wrong instantly. I’m impressed. Bit weird to go from ur high horse and claiming I cant apply a basic math model; which you were wrong for applying in the first place.
Then you proceeded to instantly move the goal posts… I mean… its very hard to take you seriously at this point.
Maybe try an other math class or 2 to see which models apply when so you don’t make yourself look this silly and we can actually have a conversation. Just a tip tho!
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I never said I was wrong. Why would I do that? I am correct. The facts are on my side, my theory is robust, and my methodology is immaculate. In order for me to lose this debate, I’d have to have a lobotomy, and even then I’d still probably win.
The SC2 pro players learned a hard lesson about statistics this past year. They cried and cried that Serral won all the tournaments because Zerg was OP. Artosis was crying and crying about the baneling in particular. Then they nerfed zerg, repeatedly. They nerfed the baneling. What happened to Serral? His performance increased. Do you remember that nerfed baneling? Yeah Serral used it to beat Maru, and the games weren’t even close.
Outliers don’t follow balance trends by definition, that’s why they are outliers. Trying to get Serral to obey the game rules is like making water run uphill. The only people who are affected by balance are the ones who aren’t gargantuan skill outliers, aka the rest of the player base. In that demographic, Protoss utterly dominates.
Ignore the pro scene. Balance the game around 99% of players minus 1% of outliers. If the pro players run into an issue, they can solve it with skill – that’s literally what they are paid to do.
Flash news!!! THe game is LITERALLY balanced for pro players. Do you honestly believe that anyone will balance the game because some scrubs in diamond/master leagues are struggling ? Why do you even mention those stupid, irrelevant tools like IQR or Lyapunov exponent when you know it has zero relevance at pro level. Nobody cares about some stupid stats in lower leagues. Also PvZ winrate 69/31 might be result of multiple smurf accounts of protoss players. That’s why this one statistic may be skewed.
I hate agreeing with BatZ, but the game shouldn’t just be balanced for pro play, but also more casual players.
It’s something League does very well, actually, because they’re constantly balancing for both high tier players and low tier players. Obviously there is an element that needs to be taken into account of “you just need to be better” but you can’t completely exclude elements of balance around those bad players either.
The difficult part though, is how do you do that for an RTS? League has several different systems you can balance around. Items. Champions themselves (base stats, scaling stats into the game, their abilities etc). Come-back mechanics. Even the EXP mechanics are something you could feasibly alter.
The big question is what can you balance in SC2 that wouldn’t also drastically effect players at the pro level?
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And that’s why the game isn’t popular. Game balance is centered around the mechanical skills of the outliers of outliers, and that, by definition, isn’t going to appeal to hardly anyone. Imagine if to ride a bike you had to be able to do bmx stunts. Suppose there’s a law and you’ll get a ticket if you don’t do bmx stunts with your bike. The popularity of biking would fall off a cliff because only 0.1% of bikers are even capable of doing bmx stunts.
That’s sc2 in a nutshell. There are a lot of strategy games out there. Chess comes to mind. The strategy genre is very popular, and sc2 could be popular. But, Sc2 is the only one that has an extreme emphasis on multitasking. An equivalent scenario would be playing 3 games of blitz chess simultaneously. Nobody is interested in that because the multitasking overrides the strategy. Strategy is no longer the way to win: multitasking is the way to win. Sc2 isn’t a strategy game. It’s a multitasking and endurance game, aka “EAM”.
Go watch clem or reynor or maxpax stream. Their camera is moving so fast it will make your stomach sick. Because sc2 is designed around Serral & Crew, it isn’t a strategy game anymore. Basically nobody on earth likes to multitask. Most people find it stress inducing. Strategy on the other hand is fascinating which is why strategy games are so popular. If SC2’s multitaking were cut by 10%, it would probably double the number of players. This would also heavily nerf serral: first becausehe wins via multitasking, second because drawing in new talent would bring new contenders to the pro scene.