Protoss needs some changes

This mainly comes from watching lowkoTV’s balance analysis on protoss. I agree with him 100%. I think the problem with protoss right now, is that it’s that their army isn’t mircoable. It is to an extent sure, but late game toss vs late game t/z just isnt the same.

Microing queens, vipers, broodlords, curropters all at once with spores, is extremely difficult, yet the better the player, the better the outcome. Terran has the same thing, the better the player, the better the outcome. Controlling ghosts, liberator, bio, tanks etc… It’s difficult to control.

I am not saying protoss is brain dead a-move, im saying they don’t have enough micro potential, which is why Zergs can dominate in the pro scene, but toss can roll their way to GM with skytoss. It doesn’t make sense how terran and zerg have to micro their heart out while toss doesn’t. And fixing this would make professional protoss players have far more potential late game.

2 Likes

Corruptors, BLs, roaches, queens, hydras are extremely a-move friendly units, zerglings too in certain scenarios.

A protoss has to split and arrange units, cast several FFs and then storm to hope to live through a mass bane/ling a-move…

I’d modify his statement to say, protoss lacks the ability to do any more significant damage through microing any better.

The highest micro potential unit protoss has is the stalker. And you can micro it to your heart’s content and it will still deal pathetic damage that is instantly negated by heal or transfuse.
It’s the worst return for effort situation probably in the entire game.

That’s a real problem not the lack of units to control better.

26 Likes

Currotors BLS roaches queens hydras are extremely a-move friendly? Are you joking? First of all, not even close, second of all, thats a horrible army comp late game. You need BLs, VIPERS infestors, and queens to beat skytoss. If you honestly think thats an a-move army, then you really need to try doing that yuorself lol

1 Like

I didn’t realize lowko was clueless about the game

11 Likes

Great feedback, thanks mate.

I think protoss has lots of micro. Maybe not end game but midgame for sure. Look at adept attacks or phoenix play or warp prism juggling or disruptor use. In the end game with skytoss it’s mostly unit positioning that matters as skytoss is very a move centered.

I don’t think micro ability is what protoss needs. It’s the fact that their stuff is so expensive without the parallels in strength. A stalker is 125/50 but a Hydra is 100/50 and does all the same things. A swarm host is 100/75 but a DT is 125/125. An oracle is 150/150 and does the same thing as a banshee essentially and is worse overall stat wise and still costs more (banshees are 150/100). An oracle and a liberator are to the balance team the same value (both are 150/150) yet everyone knows it’s a night and day difference in importance to the armies. That is the problem with protoss. The units are strong but not for cost and it’s continually getting worse with each balance patch.

9 Likes

I agree to an extent. I never said protoss mid-game was not that micro intensive. My point was late game. As you are aware im sure, protoss is really weird. Professionals are losing vs zerg and terran late game, theres no denying zerg is really favored LATE game vs them… Unless you get to below 50 GM then toss late game is the most broken thing in the game. Why is this? Because their LATE game army is a-move T-click storm. Instead of being micro intensive, it requires the opponent to mess up their micro to work. Which is why this doesn’t work in the pro scene but works great vs players that can’t micro.

I think what you said about cost effiency effects mid-game too much, im not against it late game, but am mid-game. I personally think carriers should require a lot more micro, but get buffed. That, or Tempests get changed. Tempests SUCK and thats really sad to see.

Do you see where I am coming from? I just want to see a more all around balanced late game throughout all leagues, and i think making LATE game toss more micro intensive would fix this. I am okay with making their armies stronger, but as along as it requires micro. Ya know?

Protoss is weird because all of their units, including backbone fighting units like the carrier, chargelot, and immortal, have been nerfed.

why wouldn’t anyone deny this when Protoss is favored lategame vs Zerg?

Protoss lategame works in the pro PvZ matchup.

Protoss cannot beat Terran in the lategame, and it has nothing to do with “microability” as Terran is the least micro intensive race in the game. Terran lategame has simply been buffed to high heaven

Lowkow’s claim that Protoss pros cannot distinguish themselves from others in the lategame is utter nonsense. Stats, Neeb, Showtime, Zest have all separated themselves from other protoss players in their circuits because of their lategame PvZ

Last year Rogue and Solar both said that stats is the best lategame PvZer in the world. But let’s listen to lowko who said that the best protoss players cannot separate themselves in the lategame lol

3 Likes

I cant tell if you’re trolling lol

1 Like

Now i know why my skepticism towards lowkos followers is so justified.

Lowko clearly knows better than any (protoss) pro player. If you need a stronger hint: even blizzard balancing team thinks its z favored but yeah smart lowko figured out its just because zerg players are just way more skilled in using all these heavy micro skills that they surely developed by zergs very very difficult micro in early and midgame. Its always funny when zergs wake up in lategame and say: good gosh micro many different spellcasters and unit types is hard! While its just another tuesday for terran or toss.

5 Likes

I don’t understand how so many people can misunderstand what lowko or I are saying. I am trying to help protoss late game because it sucks in the pro scene, you must not be reading what I am posting, CLEARLY.

There is a skill cap in the protoss late game, which makes them weak, very weak. I am trying to give suggestions that would buff protoss along with making them more micro intensive late game. Because even though their midgame is very much micro able, their late game isn’t.

I love how me trying to buff toss late game some how makes me a zerg player that wants them nerfed. Please read what I am saying before suggesting moronic things.

1 Like

Nobody is misunderstanding what you guys are saying.

You guys don’t understand how ridiculous and incorrect what youre saying is.

I don’t know if you and Lowko realize this, but the Protoss lategame has been continually nerfed since like 2018. That’s why it has been weak.

There is no skill cap. Nobody can play the Protoss lategame as well as stats, the most successful protoss player of LotV bar none, while youre acting the Protoss lategame is less micro-able than Zerg’s and Terran’s

Again, the problem isn’t that the lategame comps arent micro-able. It’s the fact that Protoss units are pound for pound, cost for cost, weaker than Terran units.

WRONG

1 Like

I didn’t say that was a unit comp are you dense? Probably just trying to twist the narrative in your favor really.

Those units already do fine through a-move, and on top of that have their performance increased through proper control, that’s what I said.

And on that subject, the roach has been the portrait of an a-move unit since the game exists lol.

The real disparity is investing APM in zerg/terran units gives solid returns, whereas investing APM in most protoss units at most keeps them from being total trash (stalkers).

It’s like playing against a guy who buys Tesla stocks for a dollar, but you’re only allowed to buy Chrysler stocks for ten dollars lmao.

3 Likes

I read it and i understood it. What i said was: it is completly bs.

There is plenty to do as z and p in lategame. One of the heavy changes for next patch would be breaking the all knowing and seeing lategame by that creep tumor and oracle change. now its much easier to clear creep which allows and denies many many things. Disenganging and attacking unguarded locations will get easier. Zergs cant probably move that freely lategame anymore and even the spore forest (which you dont see as often as you would like to make us think) will be much less effective because it was very very effective at attacking or defending.
Often times lategame in zvp on pro level is just getting viper+corrupter and pull and focus fire every carrier you see (reynor vs zest). But yeah we dont have that many pvz to really analyse how its usually played because guess what? pros dont want to play it.

this is actually why i responded in that way. this just shows that you dont know anything about high/higher level of sc2 or lowkos analysis is just utterly bs.
I mean that is just 100% a troll statement. im sorry.

1 Like

There’s a race whose most expensive units are a super immortal that can a-move and delete all air units and beat an ultralisk 1v1; and a massable flying hero unit that can teleport anywhere it wants and unleash unrivaled damage with nothing more than rapid fire and move click

but protoss is the race with no lategame micro guys!

I bet protoss pros would kill for actual no micro lategame units like the thor or BC

6 Likes

They probably would kill for a Thor equivalent. The new Thor isn’t balanced because it deletes all air from the game for equal cost.

2 Likes

I think the double standard displayed by hysteric players and the balance team in these matters is embarrassing.

Like, a colossus was berated and hated as the “ultimate a-move unit” through its entire viable existence. It was just wrong to have a unit with splash damage + long range that mowed down armies, so it was nerfed into being a meme.
At the same time, the lurker enters the scene. It now outranges the colossus, moves super fast, costs less, does MORE damage and it’s cloaked, with a 0.0000000001 second burrow animation that’s a joke in itself…hey…that’s ok somehow? :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

The Thor is the ultimate a-move unit. Admittedly, the roach is hard to beat, but that’s the level the thor has reached, with its million damage and HP lmao.

11 Likes

As much as I love the people that are speaking up for protoss, if I recall correctly, the season ends around the first week of next month and there’s only been one small community update after so many months. In other words, the game hasn’t changed since December and there doesn’t seem to be any intent of improving the game. It makes me wonder who’s even left in the developer scene? What’s going on? The game needs a good change now more than ever, but there hasn’t been any delivery in too long.

3 Likes

If the arrangement of Blizzard’s list of games is anything to go by, StarCraft II is very low priority now, which is unfortunate because there are so many passionate fans for both the gameplay and the lore.

For the subject at hand, Protoss is difficult to tinker with because it was designed from the ground up, pretty much, to be dependent on Force Fields and the high-tier splash-damage units (originally the Colossus and, to a lesser extent, the High Templar).

I’ll do my best to collate the overall synopsis, but I believe the main issue is an identity problem. Traditionally, Protoss were the powerhouse race, with powerful and durable units at the cost of them being much more expensive than the units of the other two races (with the exception of the Terran Battlecruiser). However, in StarCraft II, while the unit prices have stayed largely the same (125m 50g was also the price of a Dragoon, a unit with 80 shields, 100 HP, a weapon that did 20 explosive damage (10 to small, 15 to medium) and had a range upgrade to boot), the units have become more fragile and subversive as a result. Those aware of lore would point out that this is the modus operandi of the Dark Templar who have re-integrated into the main Protoss society, and they, for a stereotypical comparison, are more ninja-like than the samurai-like Khalai… they utilise guerilla tactics while the Khalai are more forward facing.

I think the problem comes from the fact that their core ranged unit relies on this too much, since the Stalker cannot really handle a direct engagement and have to rely on Blink, while traditional meat shields like the Zealot have had their durability and stopping power reduced, and so Force Fields have to be used to keep enemy units back and to rush out the high-tier units that can actually kill masses of high-damage units instead of just fight toe-to-toe. There’s also the reputation of them being ‘gimmicky’, relying on mechanics like Blink or spells to give the unit something to do other than simple firepower.

But to actually work with what we have, I think Protoss need a few more options, not necessarily to rebalance the game but to breed creativity and new builds and approaches. Some of it may require gimmicks, but I think the big one might be simplicity as well.

Just to name a few examples:

  • +25 Sentry Energy upgrade - allows instant casting of Guardian Shield to help in mid- and late-game defensive engagements when the Protoss army is out of position.
  • +25 Oracle Energy upgrade - maybe a bit of a lower-tier upgrade, but if the Revelation change goes through, this would allow new Oracles to plant a Stasis Ward prior to using Revelation (which usually results in the loss of the Oracle while doing so due to anti-air).
  • Reverting Feedback damage, or providing an upgrade that does this, mostly because the Viper so easily disables and disassembles the Protoss high-tier units.
  • Allow Carriers to forcefully recall their Interceptors and fully repair them when they return to the hangars. This allows micro-potential by attempting to, say, save Interceptors from a Widow Mine’s Sentinel Missile or a sudden influx of Hydralisks. The reward is not having to spend some extra minerals, which can go towards an extra Zealot, say - it’s a small thing, meaning it’s less likely to be game-breaking.

There are other suggestions based on specific issues, like the proxy-Robo issue and how a long-lasting Revelation is practically a necessity when fighting ranged Liberators backed up by bio.

I guess we all have our opinions on where Protoss should go and how it should be fixed. I personally want to make sure the Khalai units (Immortal, Carrier etc) can be the reliable powerhouses they’re supposed to be, while the Nerazim units (Stalker, Oracle etc) can be subversive and fully supportive.

4 Likes

Your legit 100% right as Z player that has been watching for years this is something I’ve been thinking about for a long time.

If you don’t think this isn’t the case watch Harstem beat a 5.8k GM Zerg (rotab) with no control groups by rushing carriers 16:25 is when the match starts NO Control Groups | Beating GrandMasters With Stupid Stuff

From a player stand point its very hard to play vs carriers/void rays in lower leagues simply because the game demands a more skill based response for you to bring enough AA esp as zerg to the fight Zerg AA and units are so awful late game that Zerg needs the strongest spell casters by a mile to compensate for this.

The good news is that I think Blizzard is actually aware of this problem and is starting to fix it very very very slowly.I think its honestly just extremely hard to fix and that they are aware of it.The feedback buff, Oracle changes,Mothership tag all point to this. LateGame vs P is unwatchable garbage its by far the least exciting and interesting or technical fight. Oracle,Warprism storm carrier Mothership is god tier at non pro level or even just carriers in the metal leagues.

Yet TvP or ZvP late game at the pro level is not even fun to watch because Protoss just loses when it comes to Air power the golden Armada is almost worthless once your at the highest level which is the place that balance is judged so what happens everywhere else doesn’t matter as far as judgement.

When Zerg had BL,infestor,viper etc if protoss didn’t already die from swarm hosts they were dead because zerg got to late game. Protoss players were just doing timing attacks or all ins because they were dead if the game got anywhere. Some Ts could with nukes etc actually take a game off Serral P never had a chance.

Now with the recent changes it seems TvZ is much better but still favors Zerg late game at the highest possible level. BCs are now the GG lords vs the golden Armada albeit its not 2018 Zerg its still a massive advantage for T and you almost never see BCs jump and lose. ZvP late game is still the most broken part of the whole game by far top level Zergs are unstoppable gods while most players that isn’t top 50 gm gets destroyed.

Late game Protoss being both weak at the highest level and being broken god tier at anything below top 50 gm is the biggest problem in SC2 balance by a long shot nothing comes close to this problem and nothing is doing more harm to the game than this at this time. I strongly suspect that this is already Blizzards Primary focus as far as balance goes and its going to take dramatic changes and a lot of creativity to buff the Golden Armada and hopefully nerf it at the same time for lower levels.

Nothing is hurting Sc2 more than this and Hopefully Blizzard can actually fix this as a community we should bring more attention and creativity to this. I think that a complete redesign is going to happen for late game Protoss or its going to get fixed the way zerg got buffed god tier spells…

Its clear the Golden Armada is awful T and Z pretty much never lose at top level if they get to late game on even terms. As viewer I want this fixed and as a player that isn’t top 50 GM it would be nice.

1 Like