Protoss needs to be nerfed, its not even funny. I just played a TvP. The Protoss just spams High Templars and just Energy Recharge them and then spam storms aimlessly. Protoss shoudn’t be able to have such low apm/epm and still win, they should actually earn their wins.
Protoss shouldn’t be as good as they are by just doing nothing. Lets take zerg players for example, if they lose 5 drones to 3 oracles with spammed energy recharge, the zerg basically lost the entire game. But the Protoss can just throw away 20 adepts or stalkers away and nothing happens, they can even throw their oracles away and be fine.
Speaking of Oracles, since Energy Recharge has been added. People just spam Wards, and if the Zerg/Terran gets hit by one of them, their push is over, or they just lose the entire game.
Back onto High Templars, their storm should be increased energy to 100 per storm, IF you keep the Recharge as it is.
I was saying this was khaydarin amulet 2.0 and everyone laughed at me. Soon after, hero t-clicks through gumiho in the GSL despite gumiho having a lead from the openers. Welcome to ProtossCraft 2. Protoss wins come easy and protoss losses come hard. We saw that with cure’s 1 base allin. Hero is blind sided by an allin and holds it ezpz. Gumiho is furiously prepping for hero’s attack and instantly loses to storms – it’s not even close.
I’d argue energy recharge is better than khaydarin amulet. KD added 25 energy to each templar as it warped in. Energy recharge adds 100 energy every 1 minute. That means every minute is equivalent to 4 templars with khaydarin amulet, and with no research time. That is absolutely nuts.
I think energy recharge is a very good ability. It adds strategic and tactical depth to Protoss, a race which has virtually none otherwise. But, yes, I agree that psi storm is too powerful. It’s an issue in ZvP (hydra fragility vs carrier/storm comps) and in TvP (mid game timings that are now impossible to defend because bio melts like butter & mech units are annihilated by charge or blink).
Yeah. I hope they nerf them by patching in a unit for terran that has an aoe ability to remove energy. And while we are at it, shields should be removed too!
Not for mid game timings. +100 energy the moment you have high templar tech is very powerful compared to +25 after a 110-second upgrade is researched. Energy recharge is definitely stronger for timings, but what about for macro? As long as the protoss was making fewer than 4 templar a minute, overcharge would still be more powerful. Each base yields 325 gas per minute. That’s equivalent to 2 templar per minute. That means you need to spend 100% of your 2 base gas income for khaydarin amulet to match the strength of current energy overcharge. In reality, you are going to build other gas costing units so this probably pushes back the crossover time even further to the 3-4 base mark.
Advantages are exponential so an advantage that hits faster is worth a lot more than an advantage that hits later. Energy recharge is very strong.
In reality, the difference is even bigger than I am estimating because khaydarin amulet had to be researched after storm while energy overcharge kicks in the moment you warp in templar. That’s a 189 seconds difference. You are talking about 3 energy overcharge which is equivalent to 12 high templar w/ khaydarin amulet.
They are used for different things, like energy recharge would be better for timings, like you said. But the Khaydarin amulet is better for making like 10 Templar at once.
But now that you put it, I don’t know they seem evenly as powerful in my opinion.
But what about the Tempest buff? Any thoughts about that?
To be fair, Khaydarin Amulet was a problem because you could instantly warp in a templar next to a mineral line and storm it. Without Khaydarin Amulet, High Templar must be ferried in from somewhere else, which carries a greater risk.
While Energy Recharge is more powerful for individual Templar, High Templar must at least be within a certain distance of a Nexus to benefit. So, High Templar must travel or be ferried to the target location if the player wants to use them offensively.
All of that said, the energy and cooldown are both easy to adjust if energy recharge proves too powerful.
Right and energy recharge hits way faster. By the time amulet finished researching, you’d already have 12 templars worth of energy equivalent from recharge. Being 12 templar ahead is an enormous difference in a game where having 1 more storm for a timing is game-breaking.
The tempest buff was a big issue for a range of reasons. The zerg late game army can’t go toe to toe with protoss, it’s not even close, so you typically have to offset with mass static defense and the tempest renders that non viable. It was already non viable, and the buff made it doubly so.
The tempest is basically a “protoss broodlord” but it has the same range, attacks air and ground, does twice as much damage vs ground and quadruple as much damage vs buildings, is 20% faster, 30% cheaper, and 20% faster to build.
All these stats are rather egregiously in protoss’ favor, but the most egregious of them all is the fact the brood can only attack ground. Because zerg units are specialized, they only attack air or ground, while protoss units aren’t, zerg effectively has half the supply. So not only are zerg’s anti ground units worse, but you have half as many of them.
Statistical measures show that Protoss have a +150 mmr advantage in PvZ, as measured from data prior to the patch, and you can really see why that is when protoss units are drastically better than zerg’s in literally every way. Balance is an absolute joke right now. This statistic was actually measured prior to the new patch and so I suspect the new value is closer to 250 mmr. I did a monte carlo simulation on EWC to see how big of a buff toss would need for Hero to start beating Clem and Serral reliably, and it was about 250 mmr. I don’t think we are quite to that point yet, but it’s very close. I wouldn’t be surprised if Protoss have a 200 mmr advantage.
What’s crazy about this is that if protoss go up +200 then zergs go down -200. That feels about right. I am a 5k zerg so a 4600 toss is about as hard to beat as a 5k terran. A 150 mmr advantage reduces the average player’s odds to win a tournament by a factor of 3x. So the average player has a 3% chance to win a tournament and it’s reduced to 1% if that player is a zerg. Now imagine how bad that will be with a 200 mmr advantage. It’s absolutely wild how bad balance has become.
I was letting a clem vs hero series play on a big screen TV in my office while I worked in the background and hero sieged his prism in range of a turret TWICE in the same series. This guy just won a GSL code S. That’s how FUBAR’d balance is. This guy is 5.5k in skill, maximum, and he’s beating 6.4k terran players.
Yep, Pig kept repeating that when poeple used to play HT in TvP they always didn’t have the income to both have storms to defend but also invest in future tech. It’s more extreme in ZvP i’d say because you can go from 3->1 oracles and have the same spell use. I definitely prefer it over battery overcharge though. Seems like Zerg should get something similar to boost their offence in both matchups.
The range for tempests are unbeileveable in ZvP, I feel like its basically impossible for Zerg to beat Protoss in late-game. Or it is just extremely hard to and the Protoss is just eating chips while the Zerg is just working up a sweat fighting for their life.
Zerg needs a new way of offense correct, I feel like the intended way for Zerg players to play in ZvP is more multiprong mutlitasking attacks at once which is really hard late game because Protosses just mass Static in late game and you need like 100 supply worth of army to attack anything, also the Protoss just masses on Carriers, with like 20 storms with the Carriers. Or Mass on Tempests nowadays.
This is one of the reasons why I might quit zergs, which I’m 4k by the way. ZvT is perfectly fine the way it is, but it would be nice if MS and or Blizzard to fix the Cyclone glitch. ZvP is just brutally in favor in Protoss in every way; and I’m not talking about Pro level I’m talking Diamond to high Masters. Which is what Adventure was talking about:
I also wish that Starcraft 2 wasn’t a “Dead” game, and people actually posted more builds for new Terran players to learn. I’m basically coping builds from Terran school made by uThermal for my TvT, Tvz, and TvP. which is fine. Because I know that Terran is all about perfecting your builds, as for Protoss’ you can just flip up your build like any way like loses a bunch of Oracles and be fine - Also some Terrans also complain about how A move Zerg is, which is entirely true, but it is kinda the way Zerg was intended to be played.
Now I’m trying not to be biased, every race malds about the other 2 races, which is just how Starcraft 2 is, it wouldn’t be Starcraft without people malding about Balance, haha.
Hopefully we do get a patch soon, hopefully after DH or before EWC, which would be nice.
The best that zerg has currently is to open 2 base lair for fast lurkers and double expand. Make about 8 lurkers and then go into double nydus swarm host. All gas is spent on swarm host and all minerals on spores and spines. You then pop nyduses like crazy. Once maxed, you start a hive. Trade out the lurkers with the nydus and replace them with vipers.
No army except mass void ray or zealots or stalkers will be able to keep up with the pacing of the nydus movements but those armies are absolute trash vs swarm host viper. Most of the time, the protoss will be able to max a single time and have one good allin push, and you use your 8 vipers to yoink all his carriers into spores.
Sometimes it can be helpful to include 20 lings to clear out the anti-nydus-zealots out on the map, or to keep the lurkers if he is really heavy on anti ground (archon immortal, mass zealot runby’s), or add on a couple infestors for microbial when the final fight comes. If he is heavy on tempest, it’s usually better to go corruptor swarm host. You set up a sandwich by nydusing behind his army and sending a locust wave. Now he has to retreat his ground army into the noodle forest. That means no archon support for when the corruptors pounce on the tempests.
You stay on about 60 drones the whole time because you will never get more than 4 bases. Well, sometimes you can get a sneaky hidden base off in the chaos but don’t count on it. Once you are maxed, you make 20 more spines and spores and bring your worker count down to 40. Once you have an ultimate comp, +3 attack, your main and nat will be mining out and you can go down to 20 workers. You basically never trade any units that cost any real resources so you only need enough money to do the nyduses nonstop. You will usually get a 2k gas bank when doing this build.
One slight problem is if he goes robo for colossus. If so, you have to go hive before swarm host and get the lurker range upgrade and a couple vipers. After that, you go into nydus mode.
It’s important to keep about 10 supply available for constantly rebuilding drones so that you can keep your mineral bank low as you mass ridiculous amounts of spores and spines. Don’t stop until literally every square millimeter of ever base is covered OR your mineral bank hits zero.
Also, vs mass high templar strats, your 20 zerglings should be morphed into banes and you get bane speed. In the chaos, fish for his high templar using the banes.
There are a few niche win cons that exist. You can try to kill his detection using abduct (vs oracles) and parabomb (vs observers) and from there your swarmhosts w/ burrow can’t be contested and you can be a lot more aggressive at shoving them into the protoss’ face. If you can manage to get his production (Stargates) or his detection (oververs/oracles) or his economy (dangling bases) or catch his ground army with the swarm hosts (w/o templar it’s grossly zerg favored) then you win. Each of these are win conditions. VS airtoss you have to wait for him to get fed up and attack into your spore forest. If he refuses to, you add on double spire and air upgrades and plan to fight him with some corruptors at some point. But your goal is to camp on 4 bases and never commit anything that costs any real resources. You are playing for value/efficiency and you are looking for multitasking mistakes.
As soon as you are maxed and start banking 1k gas on 4 base I’d say go ahead and add on the double spire if you’ve already seen carriers.
With protoss being as imbalanced as it is, you have basically no choice except to rely on static defense to bolster your army strength. 1 maxed archon/carrier army can kill 2 maxed hydra/ultra armies without losing even 20 supply. It’s egregiously imbalanced, you simply can’t win fights and retain territory, so you have no choice except to play for efficiency. Mass harass + static defense is perfect for this because the static defense doesn’t cost supply and that helps level the playing field vs the toss’s army. The problem is, it works if the toss attacks you. That’s why you have to play for efficiency – the game isn’t going to end anytime soon. Mass harass couples well with this because you can’t win fights vs the army so you need to get the army out of position. The swarm host is perfect for this. The swarm host has a hard time targeting things that can move, so you aim primarily for his buildings. Zerg can reliably beat 6k protoss this way, I’ve done it many times, but it will create 40 minute games every single time.
2 base lair for fast lurkers is only one way you can open. You can also open 2 base muta. The advantage of the muta opener is that the mutas themselves can contribute to the multiprong. A common response to nydus is that they will build a bunch of cannons everywhere and you can clear those out as the toss starts to build them by keeping pressure on with the mutas while doing the swarm host harass. The muta option is quite a bit weaker, though, but it can end games faster so it depends on how patient you are. You play it out more or less the same except that you trade upgrades and hive and double nydus for the mutas. You have single nydus with no-upgrade swarm hosts. You still double expand and mass static defense like normal.
You will always be behind in eco but that’s fine because as long as your defense is such that toss can’t end the game the only thing he does is burn resources by attacking you. Your goal is to never die and to trade efficiently and that means camping on 4 base with a tight defense.
The thing is, that build just sounds very complicated to play perfectly or near perfect. While the Protoss just A moves? Protoss should have a more forced mechanical why of playing like zerg. Protoss can be played at a say high masters, at 100-200 apm. I’ve seen the protoss’ in low GM with 100-200 apm, which is very low.
As Zergs need 300apm at least to play ZvP at GM level. Because Zergs need to Backstab lategame, Multitask the Protoss, and understanding how to split against storms in ZvP.
I would like if you could link a video for the build you just stated. I have not learned 2 base swarm host, and I would definitely would like to learn it.
I know some Zergs just A move in ZvT and hope for the best on 50-60 Drones. And I do feel like they should make it a little easier for Terran’s bio against Zerg. Especially in Lower Ranks (Platinum-Mid Diamond), which the Terran cant micro like Clem.
The game has a lot of balance issues, not just Protoss’ be imbalanced. I do feel the same against Battlemech Terran players, as I do with Protoss’ in general. I also, as a Zerg player, do feel like they should nerf Ultralisks.
Why:
1.) Ultras have why to much health and armor, and it is very hard to use snipe on Ultras
especially because from my knowledge that when a ghost gets hit it cancels the snipe.
2.) The only way to counter Ultras as Terran is to either go Ghost, or Tank Thor heavy Mech.
Bonus: Ghosts should also be buffed in the sense that a snipe should be like Yomato cannon and no matter how far the unit goes, the Snipe goes off.
Now people may disagree with these statements. But these are just my opinions about Ultras in ZvT. Ultralisks also kinda suck in ZvP, unless are used as a backstab like Reynor did in against Gerald in Dreamhack 2025 on May 2023 Game 2 (example).
Case in point. Rogue is objectively ahead but his army implodes like a balloon popping and the needle that pops his army is the energy recharged templar:
The game isn’t even close. I generally leave vs protoss players, ZvP isn’t worth spending time on when the game has a preset outcome, but vs very low MMR players I will still play it out because I don’t want to lose a hundred mmr. When I play it out, I open 2 base lurker because you are 100% guaranteed to be safe vs these storm timings. I then follow it up with swarm host nydus.
I saw this fun one too: Game 1 Maru vs Hero. Hero takes a fourth base vs a 2 base SCV pull allin. We’re talking near zero situational awareness here.
Amazingly he is able to take a fourth and actually keeps it & wins in game 3 (and on a small map too). Toss is giga busted if you can defend a 2 base allin from being up 2 bases.
The balance counsel pulled a fast one on zergs because they giga nerfed the hydra the last patch. They tried to sell it as a “buff” that they were adding hydra-stim but that upgrade kicks in at hivetech and the tradeoff is much slower hydras at lair tech. At lair tech is when the storm timings hit. Now zergs just straight up die to storm timings.
They buffed storm, tempests & mothership while nerfing the queen (mineral cost increase), hydra (movement speed nerf), and spore crawler (hp nerf). It was a systematic nerf of all zerg’s anti air options while systematically buffing skytoss. They did this with toss at 40% of GM and now HerO, an f2 abuser who still hasn’t learned how to wall-off, is now the recent Code S champion. This is matchfixing, cut and dry. I wonder if any of the balance counsel members made money betting that toss would win the GSL. It might be worth looking into for someone with the power to do so. The fact they manipulate balance while hiding in the shadows with covert black ops levels of subterfuge is highly suspicious especially given SC2’s history which includes large matchfixing scandals.
Bare minimum, their names should be publicly disclosed & their conflicts of interests clearly stated. That’s what scientists do. Imagine a scientist publishing a whitepaper that decides the fate of a billion dollar industry anonymously. It’s absurd to the point of comedy. Nobody would take that whitepaper seriously in the slightest. The way the paper has credibility is if the author discloses his name, conflicts of interests, and provides all his data for peer review.
The balance counsel has no peer review. They operate in the shadows. We have no idea if there are any financial conflicts of interest (there are definitely conflicts of interest since everyone is invested in the game they play). Add in SC2’s history with matchfixing, and their overwhelming bias for protoss, and it’s the definition of suspicious.
I’d even go so far as to say that all their discussions should be public as well. They should make the discord server, where they talk, public to view but private to post in. Anyone and everyone should be able to see what they are talking about.
Imagine a “scientist” who says “drug BlahBlah cures cancer” but who conveniently doesn’t mention his study was paid for by the company that produced the drug. There are similar problems in similar industries and this is how they solve them. Absolutely nobody should trust the balance counsel until they are completely transparent with the public.
