Protoss is one-dimensional

A 2.8K protoss could beat maru if he was given the right army against the right army of maru which had less supply.

Why design a race for people who just want to be one-dimensional-brained?

People talk about MOBAs being less impressive to play than RTS. That’s true but now think about the complexity of literally just a-moving mass carrier VS two heroes fighting in a MOBA. The MOBA wins out in this scenario, by far.

All this can do is make people quit because the protoss player’s wins aren’t satisfying, and the non-protosses have a complete split of playing vs another race VS playing vs a protoss because they have every advantage.

Then, additionally, the person playing protoss doesn’t have the hope of ever beating maru even tho he hypothetically could, because GSL is matchfixed. It has the same signs of being fake as WWE.


I always thought it’s interesting that if you throw a game on purpose it’s illegal but if you rig all of the game’s balance to favor your favorite race it’s … legal or illegal? No clue, really. It’s an interesting legal question.

Wouldn’t it be funny if it’s perfectly legal to rig entire tournaments with preset outcomes to favor one race over another, but it’s illegal to throw a single game on purpose. That would be quite ironic.

This is purely hypothetical by the way. It’s just a very interesting legal question. What if a tournament someplace, somewhere, were to do that. What laws could prevent a large tournament, no tournament in particular, from rigging the outcome via game balance? Is there such a law? I legitimately have no idea. It could be perfectly legal for all I know.

How would they even go about rigging balance? Would it be via custom maps, or maybe exerting influence on the balance counsel? Would that count? It’s just fun to theorize. Let’s say they change the map and bump up marine’s health by 5. Is that considered match fixing? :thinking:

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I mean yeah, sure, if you stack the deck in favor of someone enough before you even get to the test, of course they’re going to win. Do you want to make sure that Maru only has one building too so the protoss can just ignore his army and right click the supply depot to force a game over while youre at it? Because the “protoss” part here is not where the victory is coming from.

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They clearly have 3D models wdym

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That example with one supply depo is only appropriate because it’s one-dimensional like protoss units are.

If the low MMR player is given a terran or zerg deathball they can easily get skill-checked by maru, despite him having less supply.

But how do you deal with mass carrier? You don’t let them get there. Because if your own army isn’t perfect to deal with it, the game turns into a one-dimensional unstoppable deathball a-move win for the protoss, with no skill expression AKA nothing you can throw at the deathball once it’s done.

e.g. lurkers make it so that bio can’t a-move into them, but you need an insanely high number to deal with a protoss ground deathball otherwise it still just a-moves and auto wins.

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I feel Like People have difficulty to understand that in Most cases If you have a high Carrier Count your Army value is Just way way bigger than the Army value of the opponent. And its Like yeah duuuuuh. You should win that Fight then. Another Thing is that its Not really about the carrier alone. Carrier only deathball is some of the easiest unit you can Deal with with much lower Tech and in less time. For example Ghost Marine medivac crushes Carriers (ask Heromarine he is saying the Same) and there you actually dont even need to micro. You could kill all the Carriers or you could kill all interceptors. Doesnt Matter. or you could Go Vikings. But colossus or hts would pretty much kill Marines/Vikings. Well OK you still can easily Kite with Vikings and they dont get Stromed easily when They move but If you need to defend then and there its over.

Almost exact Same Thing can be Said about zerg. Corrupters will hard counter Carriers and you could Just now Go a move very easily but then again there is Storm/archons.

For protoss you can easily Deal with Carriers with stalkers but Immortals and disruptors are the Problem.

Again the carrier itself is very easy to Deal with but the Support is whats giving you a hard time.

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Both of these specific statements are wrong.

Vikings have a combination of speed (middle of the pack or slow) and health that render them more vulnerable to Storms than just about any air unit besides Observers. Just about every other air unit is either faster, or it has significantly more health if it is slower. In both cases, the other air units are better than Vikings at handling Storm.
The Viking’s range can sometimes force the High Templar to step forward, but Vikings have trouble avoiding or getting out of Storms.

Kiting Carriers with Vikings is impossible if the Carriers are moving towards them. There is only a 1 range advantage, and the Carriers will overcome that gap in the time it takes for Vikings to fire their missiles and accelerate to the Carrier’s speed. After that, there is a 12 range leash that negates any advantage that attempting to kite would otherwise bring.

Vikings are better off focus-firing individual Carriers, and the Vikings might even need to chase to break even if the Protoss player pulls their Carriers back to exploit the leash range. By the way, none of this is a complaint about Carriers. Terran can reasonably handle them. It’s just that those two points you gave were incorrect.


The kiting is meant for storm and Not for Carrier DMG per se. You cannot storm kiting Vikings easily since high templars are slow.

So the Argument still Stands and is correct. You can Deal with Carriers with Vikings when you Kite.

It is Not the optimal way and Not the hard counter but you can do it.

youtu. be/xaAOXUyT5Co?si=FJelpiS_L5cMTPCB

At around 2 minutes thermy Tells us that going Viking is a hard way to pull it Off and you need to use turrets and the Long range of Vikings to Snipe Carriers.

We need to remember that Same Cost Vikings absolutely destroy Carriers. So you can afford to sac some to Carriers. But Not to storm.

But yeah fine. I guess Ghost Viking and then Just stand there and fight would be better anyway.

Yeah a lot of people don’t understand tempo plays. Tempo is about abusing a short time window when you have an advantage in some area. It could be army strength for example. You use that timing to create a broader advantage in more areas, like economy. You use repeated timings to keep the game in a state that advantages you. That’s exactly what you are talking about with Maru & skytoss. Even Maru would lose to maxed skytoss, but he doesn’t because he keeps the tempo in his favor.

The issue is that when tempo is the only counter to skytoss, it means you can only beat it with very specific builds built to hit very specific timings. That means no strategic diversity. That means no diversity in execution. That means if you make 1 mistake you will miss your window and the your tempo play won’t work. The net result is that Maru has 1 path to victory and Protoss has 1000 paths to victory, but because Maru is so flipping good he will reliably hit that 1 where he can win. Nobody else can do that. Relying on tempo to counter protoss is not a viable way to balance the game for all skill levels.

The issue is chronoboost. It makes protoss army strength ramp up too fast & this makes the timing windows incredibly narrow to the point even the slightest hiccup in your build is equivalent to letting Protoss max, f2, and amove through you to victory.

Chart to explain this process:

By contrast, this is what a balanced game would look like:

It’s very easy to prove that current X vs Protoss meta relies on tempo to win by looking at win-rate charts in Masters:

Obviously, the only viable strategy vs Protoss is tempo. Keep in mind these charts UNDERESTIMATE the issue because the ladder equalizes win-rates to 50/50 via demotion/promotion. So the issue is much larger than these charts imply. The true win-rates probably look like the army strength graph I drew (

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Creator vs Dark game 3 (in the gsl) really reinforces this post x1000. The dude f2 amoves an unstoppable army onto creep and allows ling bane to not just get a surround but filter through the army. None of the splash targets the banelings and none of the archons are positioned to block the banelings. Dark gets to live thanks to one of the worst engagements I’ve seen in recent memory. Fast forward, dark makes some awesome moves and gains a positional advantage, killing a base (multiple times) & getting inside of creator’s natural. Then creator solves this dilemma with an f2 + amove and it absolutely obliterates dark’s army. It’s not even close.

So yeah they’ve buffed toss to where your only option as zerg is to pray the protoss has had a labotomy. Creator has not had a labotomy so he gets to beat dark.

Game 1 I liked and thought Creator definitely deserved the win. Game 3 was painful. Never in a million years should the protoss win that game.

:point_up_2: Lmao

If this guy wins a GSL, and I frankly hope he does, I am just going to bust a gut laughing at how ridiculous this all is. So I am officially cheering for Creator. Lol. Good luck to the GSL casters, they are going to need it. Man, they have a tough sell on their hands. :rofl:

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Yeah I have to agree with that. Dark vs Creator had some painful moments. Multiple in game 3. The timing attack Dark hit caught so many units isolated, including some disruotors which survived a perfect surround thanks to overcharge. However I do think that could have been handled better by targetting the otherwise unprotected shield batteries down too.

Creator has been playing better, but it still shows how badly some protoss seem intent on throwing otherwise won games.

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ya protoss ground units def need buff