Protoss already doesnt win many tournaments. This patch?

General Discussion
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After seeing the patch notes, as someone who follows the pro scene tournaments only, I was actually blown away to find that Protoss is actually getting significantly nerfed. And Zerg buffed??

I am telling you for the health of the game, that protoss pros will be done pretty soon, they will start switching races, almost definitely to zerg. Protoss fans will lose even more interest in tournaments. Viewship will go down further.

As a protoss fan, I have literally lost interest in tournaments already over the last few years because I know it’s not a fair playing field for the players I support. Why would I watch something that has proven to be destined to disappoint?

Disruptor is the only unit that keeps protoss in the game against high level T. It is effectively nerfed into the ground with a 19% in area reduction.

Zerg getting any buffs is frankly ridiculous, they win every tournament outside of korea, and a healthy share in Korea too. Guess what, your players aren’t just ‘better’. It is so boringly predictable that I don’t actually follow the scene outside of Korea anymore.
The dev team has really dropped the ball on this one. I get if Hydra and Ultra arent as effective as they should be in certain scenarios, but buffs to these must be met with nerfs to other areas, think lurkers, vipers or queens.

I get that protoss do okay in the generally ladder and community games. But in the pros it is getting out of control how uncompetitive they are about to get. This is why protoss need significant buff in units that are hard to use or require a level of skill to get the most out of it, in this way, it wont effect the community:

SOME IDEAS

  • Sentry, a longer range to the forcefield, so protoss can actually catch enemy units more effectively in a skilful manoeuvre.

  • Buff to a micro intensive unit like the phoenix. Not sure what exactly.

  • Disruptors should NOT be nerfed, it is a high skil unit, don’t believe me? Try using it in game in a high pace game, it is a a lot harder than you think.

  • A tier 3 upgrade to stalkers to make them more useful in the later stages. Perhaps a upgrade that gives them small AOE splash to combat mutalisks so protoss isnt forced into stargate oponers.

  • Increased range on feedback so the ghost vs HT vs viper battle is actually fair.

  • Observer needs a T3 upgrade, for longer vision range and more hp so it is not such a sitting duck late game. longer vision range allows HTs to actually combat viper/lurker.

  • Its time that vipers cannot pull motherships anymore. Make hero units immune to viper pull. OR it pulls only 50% distance.

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Protoss pros won’t win tournaments even if you buff Protoss to the moon. The data is pretty clear about that. The top 5 terran/zerg are simply in another universe in terms of skill compared to the top 5 protoss. It’s also been proven that this is a skill issue and not a balance issue. The performance difference between these groups would require Zerg and Terran to be favored around 70% in their winrates against toss, and vs P winrates are nowhere near that level. It’s a skill issue.

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Eh, it’s actually really hard to determine things one way or the other. Balance is not constant across skill levels, and differences in balance will generally be at their most significant when things are closest to optimal play.

IE: if you had two identical races, except that 1 was 1% stronger across the board, then the player with that 1% advantage would win 100% of the time if players are playing optimally. And the closer to optimal they play, the more that advantage will show. So, it’s incredibly difficult to actually determine how much of a difference is due to player skill vs balance, and since games are played in series, not single games, those differences become even more significant when it comes to tournaments. You can’t really accurately determine differences in player skill at all when they play different races.

The top 5 Zerg/Terran players actually being that much better than the top 5 protoss is actually pretty unlikely.

The problem for Protoss at the top of the pro scene is that the race is designed around mixing up the opponent with tech advantages through proactive tech decisions, and/or some early advantage through eco/shield regen to compensate for generally less efficient units.

Late game PvZ for example, is sort of carried by how interceptor priority forces Zerg to constantly micro their corruptors in late game fights. That corruptor micro is the majority of Zerg micro when a fight is happening in the late game, and this patch is taking that out entirely with no noteworthy compensation. The Zerg army is actually stronger (if execution is on point); it’s just much more difficulty to use in context because carriers screw with unit AI and that gives the Zerg player a lot of extra micro to do just to be able to actually kill protoss units.

The early game is carried by shield batteries and warp prism micro + choke points allowing Protoss to greatly increase the effectiveness of their units in moderate-small numbers through micro against the generally shorter-ranged and less-microable (but otherwise far more efficient) Zerg units.

The current design gives protoss an edge among players with a bit lower level of skill, Zerg has more trouble fighting vs a composition with carriers, and the ability to win off of tech advantages/decisions due to being more proactive with them and players being worse at scouting and recognizing what’s going on all favor the Protoss. But the higher you get to the highest level of skill, the more those advantages slip away, and the more glaring the disadvantages become - units being dependent more on the opponent than on the person using them is ultimately a disadvantage at the highest levels.

Disruptors vs Maru are already often questionable, and with this nerf, they probably won’t even be worth making, and the later stages of the game are already pretty even, or Terran favored if things go really late.

So, these changes are likely to pigeonhole Protoss into more aggressive play by heavily nerfing their late game.

If stalkers/adepts got something like the Hydra damage point change, or Protoss got some new upgrades for the late game to compensate a bit for these nerfs, maybe things would be fine, but simply nerfing Protoss without addressing the design issues that favor it at lower levels, but hinders it at the highest levels, is going to really hurt the top players.

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Nope, it’s not. It’s very easy to prove if you have a background in statistics. Here are two separate analysis methods that both show top professional Protoss aren’t as good as their T/Z counterparts:

The first one standardizes their performance at SC2 similar to an IQ test and shows top Terran/Zerg are equivalent to 190ish “SC IQ” while the nearest top Protoss is 140 “SC IQ”. The second is just a deeper dive into the first. The third is a quick comparison of ladder performance between the top Zerg and top Protoss in the world, showing the performance gap is way to large to explain with balance. In order to explain this performance gap with balance, you’d need ladder ZvP win-rates to be roughly 70% in Zerg’s favor, and that’s definitely not the case (Zerg’s ladder win-rates have been <50% inside GM for the past 2 years). Thus it is proven that the issue is skill.

Top Protoss just aren’t as good.

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Totally wrong. Protoss wins by FAR the most tournaments of any race. Just not the handful of high profile premier tournaments that lowbies and new players think of as “the” only tournaments.

Stats for 2022 (so far)
1st and second placement in tournaments

Toss: 588 574
Terr: 368 362
Zerg: 286 288

If anything, toss has been significantly OP for a few years.

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Toss is OP because they get all the table scrap tournaments that nobody cares about huh?

You sure you dont want to think that the rest of the way through?

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Such a LOL statement. Protoss are weak garbage compared to the other 2 races. Zerg can outproduce them from the start with 28 lings from 2 hatcheries which forces a shield battery turtle in hopes you can stay alive long enough to get a decent force, but by then Zerg will have the map and 3X your income…utterly F*****G stupid.

The game is Terran VS Zerg, that’s it.

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OBVIOUSLY basic tournaments are as important as gsl tournies. Just straight factz :smiley:

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I did. Now you should try it

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At least you guys get some buffs, not just nerfs like Terrans.

I guess somebody at Blizzard just love ZvZ finals, semi-finals and quoter finals.

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I can confidently say that you have not.

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Nice reasoning. OP literally complains that protoss doesn’t win many tournaments. I pointed out the solid sourced fact that they do. (source: liquipedia 2022 stats) You cry over it, and say I haven’t “thought through” the fact I pointed out… That makes sooo much sense. No wonder everyone here makes fun of you and no one takes you seriously.

Stop being a clueless crybaby. You even cry win your race wins the most tournaments. Pathetic.

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Yeah, we win all the garbage tournaments that none of the serious pros bother to play in, because were so weak thats all we can win. Its like saying that an ostensibly NBA level player is “too good” because they keep winning kiddy league games and nothing else.

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You know, even if that were true, that means no higher level zerg or terran players are in those tournaments either. Which means toss wins most tournaments against people with the same mmr. Durrrr.

Talk about not thinking it through. :slight_smile:

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So what youre saying is that as people get better, protoss wins less?

Sounds like a L2P issue then.

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btw - Toss wins more GSLs than terran.

GSL wins for the last 2 years. (Source: liquipedia)

GSL winners in 2022:
Nov 28, GSL Supertournament 2 Solar (Z)
Aug 22, GSL S3 Code S Maru (T)
Jun 06, GSL S2 Code S Hero (P)
Mar 01, GSL S1 Code S Rouge (Z)
Jan 17, FSL Supertournament 1 Zest (P)

GSL winners in 2021:
Nov 22, GSL Supertournament 3 Rouge (Z)
Aug 30, S3 Code S Cure (T)
Jun 28, S2 Code S Dark (Z)
May 17, GSL Supertournament 2 Trap (P)
Apr 05, S2 Code S Rogue (Z)
Jan 27, GSL Supertournament 1 Trap (P)

Totals:
Zerg 5
Toss 4
Terr 2

Just straight factz :wink: :slight_smile: lololol
(REAL facts)

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Now, given the above tournament facts with sources, where does the whiny protoss persecution complex come from exactly? (other than complete ignorance of the facts, obviously)

100% honest question.

Whiny protoss troll nooblets need not attempt a reply.

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They dont. Well they dont win “THE” GSL more often. If gsl= gsl supertournament why is rogue chasing the g5l? :slight_smile: He already has 6 titles, no? :smiley:

But engaging further in this question doesnt make a lot of sense because you actually declared gsl=gsl st which is just utter nonsense. No one with half a brain would consider them being equal.

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The literal course of this thread…

Protoss: Protoss don’t win many tournaments.

Me: yes they do, here’s the hard numbers, facts, with the source listed.

Protoss: but but None of those GM level tournaments matter. Protoss don’t win GSLs.

Me: yes they do, here’s the hard numbers, facts, with the source listed.

Protoss: but but but Not those GSLs. They don’t count either. We mean only “THE” GSL.

Me: Facepalm. Why do I even try with protoss whiner nooblets?

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Im not saying any of these things (except looking at basic tournies is nuts). Im just saying that stating they have won more gsl in last 2 years is pretty wrong/misleading.

Ofc gsl and gsl are not the same.
If you think otherwise maybe go watch some gsl and how they pointing out that maru got the g5l award and not rogue.

Im glad that terran zerg and protoss win an equal share of pro tournies. So we can be glad about the balance :slight_smile: And after next patch hopefully it will be even better.

1 Like