Proposition of buffs for Protoss

General Discussion
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Now that the void ray meta got nerfed (and good thing it is), I think its time to think of a slight boost to Protoss, direct or through slight nerfs of other races, while buffing units that are fun to play and to watch.

1-Terran emp - the upgraded shield drain is to much. Change so the in the upgraded radius only energy gets drained, not shield. The basic radius still functions as before, draining both energy and shields.

2- With void ray nerf, ravager and roaches are again very hard to deal with early on. Maybe a possbiel solution would be to buff the immortal, as its a unit that isnt that much used these days, and imho wont create unbalances in other places. For example a 50-100 hp buff?

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Revert the nerfs to observer movement speed, immortal cost, and colossus weapon damage. Revert forge upgrade speed.

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Im all for immortal buffs, these ravager all ins are really difficult to deal with now. Zerg early aggression in general is currently too strong and too easy to pull off.

The issue is though, if you go robo 1st, you have no future as lurkers are far too strong for protoss ground forces.

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the proxy sb nerf was overdue.
Considering that Robo and immortal costs were changed because of Sb- immortal chees.
possibly this change with Sb, the immortal cheese would have already ended.

  1. we rarely if ever see this situation.
  2. look at the video of lambo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn6k9H9dKTI
    i think toss just forgot a lot of things in the last 2 years. Because void were too easy. spam air units that were too cheap for their versatility and the rest was in sb/ cannon. safe early game, solid mid game and easy late game druch VR-> skytoss. even harstem said that VR are bad design.
  3. also the argument no future with robo 1st, is semi good. Because lurkers come relatively late into the game. Even in Stargate 1st you can see ~6-7min that toss has almost its whole tech tree.

In the second game of Rogue vs NightMare you could see how NightMare played a lot with adapt, maybe you can strengthen such aspects.

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Harstem is a scam artist, sell out, proud little satanist. All he does is spew propaganda/lies and b s. From day 1, he has said ridiculous things about Toss. P is always too easy to play. Oh man, so and so matchup is way too easy. He’s paid disinformation. He’s a clown. He’s a traitor in every way possible.

If it were up to Harstem, P vs P would only be disruptor vs disruptor. The guy is a certified clown. He’s anti strategy. He’s anti truth. He just says random stuff man. What’s wrong with the void ray? It’s the most versatile unit Toss has. It fills a specific role, too.

Before I came along, saying the void ray was good, all the pros swore to me it was the worst unit in the game. I’m like hey… it’s a key unit to the best build in the game (P vs P) and the most solid way to approach macro vs Zerg.

The void ray is fine. You know what’s not fine? The other units that contribute to Toss never being able to win a big tournament. You know the tempest, the unit that does NOTHING? I mean absolutely nothing but take up supply and be a money sink? Yeah that unit is bad design given it’s designed to do jack.

The high templar… may as well not exist either. Doesn’t give you the upper hand vs vipers. Terran emp negates Toss to begin with. They’re already supposed to make ghosts. They’re already countering the unit by default… Only an idiot/con man would focus on the few good units Toss has and talk about being bad design.

If one wanted to talk about a unit that helps Toss win games being bad design it would be Harstem’s favorite unit the disruptor. Talk about irony. It’s the most obvious band aid unit ever. A unit that can kill an entire army in a hit? Like come on. If that’s not proof enough that everything else is lackluster, something is awry. Even with that ability/potential, the race still struggles to win anything.

The problem isn’t the void ray. The problem is every other unit not being on par… carrying its own weight. The only thing Harstem cares about is helping people get away with fraud and being of service to his loser society gang. That’s it. Pay him enough, and he’ll say the tempest is too OP and do it with a straight face. Last person anyone should ever listen to.

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I agree with you on that point. Early on I saw toss with void opner. And thought ok no matter if roach or normal macro VR are not bad. More deffensive than phoenix/ oracel or prism.
But when I asked toss players said: ground Zerg would overrun toss then.

What I mean by bad design was wrongly formulated by me. This build of void without risk. you could quickly build 3-4 voids and fly around with the speed buff.

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Although Harstem has pretty good youtube videos and seems like a nice guy, he is and never was at the level of GSL players (probably under even code A).

Taking what he says about the game and/or units and putting it on a pedestal isn’t completely correct even though he is good.

Protoss needs a real creative change, something that addresses the races short comings infront of really good terrans and zergs, but also helps us master and lower ranked players to enjoy doing more than stargate openers into carriers every game.

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I never got the speed upgrade for void rays until I was maxed out or they went with a corruptor heavy build. You’re not supposed to get speed. That’s bad macro. Terran can use marines at every point in the game, every matchup… without risk…

The problem is that people like Harstem are pretending my old build is new and that they’re coming up with revelations or have a clue. Even if they had a clue, they’re liars, so… who knows if they ever choose to speak on reality. I messaged harstem about my build, and then he copied it. We conversed on it.

If he wouldn’t have devoted his life to fraud, I would have explained to him that I wasn’t saying it would win a championship. I would have said… yeah, I know… the viper needs to be nerfed, you psycho.

There is a counter build to the void ray build, just like every other build except the P vs P one I created… It’s simply never used, so it makes the void ray build look like a world beater versus non elite players.

It’s simply the most solid way to open, but there is still a counter and any pro gamer worth being called a pro will win the late game due to Zerg having a better late game.

If a person wants to talk about Toss design and they don’t mention the tempest being worthless or the HT being redundant/ineffective… they’re a clown. Buy them a red nose and ask them their address. Unless they’re already wearing a red nose. Look out for the clowns. Clown lives don’t matter, but they need to be identified so people know to avoid listening to Harstem and the other gang members.

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Because as long as P goes ground, it can die to many tipes of ground forces, roach ravager bane backed by a good macro steamrolls most ground P compositions.

Protoss players make air units because they are decent vs Z during the early stages (no hidralisk or parabombs) and because overall, air units are better than ground, they move better and make map control an option, try to have some map pressence with P ground units and they will be surrounded and killed.

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For the final time, I’d like to explain the logic behind why I CREATED IT. That’s far more important/meaningful than what Lambo wants to say or what Harstem wants to believe. Believe it or not.

So, if you attempt to play a macro game vs Zerg and you’re sitting back at all, Zerg can go mutas. Now, you’re not production tab hacking. Even if you scout a spire… how many freaking mutas are they going to make? Are they even making mutas?

If you don’t have 3 stargates to begin with, you open yourself up to being used and abused. You either under make phoenixes or over make them. It’s a never ending guessing game. You’re not a psychic. While they’re making pure roaches/lings… you can be making phoenixes and get over run on the ground if you opened with another build.

You’re forced into playing in a way that best enables you to deal with the “muta problem.” 3 stargates and already having a lot of void rays is the best route. Then, the best unit Toss has is the disruptor. It just happens to combo best and work out financially with void rays. It all ends up fitting like a glove. There is no alternative that doesn’t pose a losing to muta problem that offers any advantages over it.

I said it over 2 years ago, a reiteration no less, in a thread I made of this build will win every game before top GM, and then it will lose every game because the viper has to be nerfed. Am I talking to myself? Can anyone remember anything? There’s nothing to talking about. There’s no other sources to talk to/hear from. From the horses mouth. Ancient history to me, whether it’s day 1 of your life or not.

Not angry at you. I’m just sick of this stupid fake world and the clowns who would sell their “soul” for a hotdog.

In the few times I played Zerg, I would always go muta, ling, roach. It was a build order win vs macro Toss… There’s other reasons for why you’re supposed to use that void ray build, but mutas are the fundamental reason. Everything else is adding cherries on top of it; eg., you want to fight lurkers on the ground?

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i’m talking about the speed buff. not the upgrade.

The point was Lurker counters toss ground and that is not quite true.
i refer again to the video of lambo. The statement of Lambo if Queen walk gets nerf it could help ground toss. Now let’s see how the changes affect.
stargate is just better allround.

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I’ve been running around with void rays since 2017 versus Zerg in the same manner… I can’t notice any difference with any speed buff. It’s all the same to me. The only time speed really comes into play is versus corruptors. Ever since they buffed the corruptors, they’re able to clown on all your buildings and out micro the void rays, even, if the void ray isn’t fast itself.

It really comes back to mutas, again. Mutas trade pretty well versus stalkers. Add in lings or roaches + mutas… and Zerg can take that fight head on easily… Unless you have parting like micro, you just never get value/cost efficiency. The risk to reward is just a joke. The effort to effectiveness… It would be like having to try hard micro marines and you were never allowed to research stim. Like what’s the point? Where’s the fairness?

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good point the switch to mutas vs robo is hard.
but immortal/archon/+gate used to be popular too. and archon are good against mutas in direct combat.
And yes i know, mutas harass bases. and archon have problems then, ironically toss has to defend with clunky units against fast air units.

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I like MC. He all-ind’ like a caveman so he won more than anyone else in WoL. But, he was the only other Toss player smart enough to understand you can’t get phoenix range vs mutas.

So, phoenix range is supposed to be what you want vs mutas when opening what was a normal ground approach. But, again… the fleet beacon is 300/200 and phoenix range is 150/150.

This poses multiple problems. One, simply making a fleet beacon already costs too much. You’re already too committed to a path (mutas) that they can pivot from. Then, by the time you even researched phoenix range, the game has probably already been decided, one way or the other. And wasting all that money surely didn’t help you win. Probably helped you lose, though.

The muta player has all the advantages. More mobile. Strong enough to take your army head on, basically. Get to take the map while you waste money on cannons, making the eco/money discrepancy even more embarrassing.

So, you’re forced into aggro play or the only viable passive approach. Only one passive approach really exists. You’re welcome, you ungrateful satanists (you know who you are). And that path also allows you to get phoenix range. The only one that allows you to play a game how it was intended to be played (you actually get to use counters).

Archons only get to actually engage mutas once Zerg has been forced into a corner. On the other hand, mutas get to spend all game picking you apart and deciding their own terms, outside of having gotten outplayed into fighting you or Toss did an all-in, basically.

Toss simply isn’t designed well enough. Think about all the options Terran has against mutas compared to Toss. It’s the same story all-around. That’s why builds are such a big deal with Toss. There’s not many ways to skin the cat. Not many builds are good enough to compete at a high level without catching your opponent with his/her pants down…

Toss is the worst race at the pro level by so many factors. The tempest has been the worst unit ever for an eternity. It’s not rocket science. You figure out how to make the tempest into something with a purpose… Doesn’t matter if it’s a complete redesign or scraping that unit for something else. Stop being lazy…

The problem with discrimination is it conditions people to accept being a moron. Like you’re literally the dumbest person to ever exist if you can’t even credit me with a single build, when they’re all mine… just cause “pathological lair that I know is lying wants me to believe something else.” Guess why everyone is a sheep being led to the slaughter? They don’t have the backbone to even call the bad guy a bad guy, cause “bad guy wants me to say he’s a good guy.” Wow…

Anyways, the point is… Toss has been discriminated against for so long and had the short end of the stick for all time, that… people have been conditioned to thinking Toss winning = Toss imbalanced; they believe the players of the other races are all more skilled than any Toss player, hence why they’ve always won instead of Toss.

So, when fairness in reality actually happens, everyone cries foul. Especially Harstem the joke artist. “But… guys… Toss was already the best race by a factor of 10. I even beat someone in Silver 2 today who was playing with 1 hand. See guys… please believe me. We have to nerf Toss. And I’m saying this, as a Toss player, so you know it’s legit.” Race has been intentionally gimped and liars with ulterior motives have been made the de facto president of Toss cause this game community is built on being satanic clowns.

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Mutas is such a thing. when mutas win control. ZvZ some pro players have already said roach timing because you do not want to play against mutas. on the other hand already seen games where the switch to mutas was bad decision.

With Terra I have the feeling is the race of possibilities and diversity. Partly also the feeling Terra is more moba than rts.

this discussion takes place more often. Core statement: Toss is not good in bo 5+.
but if you just look at liquipedia at Korean tournaments. Is toss relatively often in the finals. it reminds me a bit of SoO who always came second. but in AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament is toss dominated , even with PvP finals 2017-2022.

The impression is very influenced by EU. And here I want to note Eu has double-elimination bracket. While Korean uses singel-elimination bracket, where korean are the players closer to each other by skill.

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Terran EMP should not have an upgrade, and a 50-100 hp buff will do absolutely nothing for the immortal in the face of a swarm of lings.

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If you want to buff the Immortal, I feel like a much better place would be to improving the duration, cooldown, or absorption of its Barrier ability.

Increasing its Health by 25% will either make it incredibly difficult to kill without having any possible action, or do approximately nothing. It will also mess up players’ understanding of how fights should go, which I feel like they haven’t changed much for a while. Yes, improving Barrier would also do this, the difference is only the clear visual signal that Barrier is currently absorbing damage.

If the desire is to nerf the Roach-Ravager build versus Protoss, I think a better thing that goes oft-suggested is changing the interaction between Corrosive Bile and Force Field. One of the reasons Protoss doesn’t have much to deal with the strategy is that multiple of their units don’t fight too well against Roach-Ravager in a straight battle, and they have very low ability to use their early abilities to re-shape that battlefield.

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Funny thing is Protoss had the solution. It was a little overtuned but it existed for a while in the form of the +damage on charge. Issue was it did too much damage too early…but instead of nerfing it, it was outright replaced instead.

That upgrade made cheese and bad allins not nearly as viable vs Protoss. It also made more sense thematically. Having a 7 foot plant alien crash into you at hypersonic speeds is going to hurt more than normal.

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Playa I will be brutal here: me and i think many persons here, dont give one sh*t if you created some builds first or not. It was ages ago, its not cure for aids, its some ideas for a videogame. You might or might not have invented them , I dont care.Do something now, instead of posting delusions, and I might be more receptive. Or better leave these forums and go plant tomatoes or something, all the imagined or real slights connected with SC2 seems to eat your sanity away.

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oh ya, that 3.5 seconds extra to build a void ray is sure stopping protoss from going void ray completely now… /facepalm.

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