Propose Balance Patch 5.0.15

General Discussion
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I would like to propose to SC2 Community Balance Council a few suggested changes…

Terran Adjustments

Overall goal is to strengthen Terran’s mid-game versatility with improving Hellbat and Reaper while curbing early-game Battlecruiser harass, make Ghost more vulnerable to anti-light units and add slightly more risk to Medivac boosting.

Ghosts are extremely powerful infantry units, and should be more vulnerable to Banelings in TvZ and Colossus’ in TvP. For Hellbat, the Light Tag should be removed to make unit more resilient to said units. As Archons deal bonus damage to Biological, I also suggest removing Biological Tag from Hellbat to encourage more mech against Protoss. As Reapers fall off after early game, I would like to propose a new upgrade that makes Reaper grenades deal bonus damage vs structures. For Medivac, there should be more drawbacks for constant boosting, therefore increasing cooldown of afterburners adds more risk. For Battlecruiser, the unit would be unviable without TJ, but should require an upgrade at Fusion Core to delay opponent from teleporting directly into mineral line to provide more time for counter-play. However, to keep total cost to upgrade Battlecruisers the same, the Weapon Refit no longer requires an upgrade and comes stock.

Ghost

  • Add the Light Tag.

Hellbat

  • Remove the Light and Biological Tags.

Reaper

  • New research: Incendiary Charges
    • Cost: 100/100, 79 seconds
    • Research from: Tech Lab
    • When KD8 Charge explodes, it deals +50 bonus damage vs. structures.

Medivac

  • Ignite Afterburners cooldown increased from 14 seconds to 20 seconds.

Battlecruiser

  • Weapon Refit no longer requires upgrade (removed from Fusion Core).
  • Tactical Jump now requires upgrade at Fusion Core.
  • New research: Jump Drive
    • Cost: 150/150, 100 seconds
    • Research from: Fusion Core
    • Enables use of the Battlecruiser’s Tactical Jump.

Protoss Adjustments

Discussion

Overall goal is to improve utility of Sentry, tone down early-game fast warp-in of Warp Prism (can be improved via new upgrade), offer more durability for the Colossus and tone down skytoss.

To improve Sentry, it would be good to extend range of Guardian Shield by 1 to be more reliable in protecting Zealots. Right now, when Sentry and Zealots attack front line, Zealots are always just outside range of shield. For Warp Prism, it should have slow warp-in by default and can be improved to fast warp-in through new upgrade at Robotics Bay. To improve durability for the Colossus, I would like to propose a new upgrade at Robotics Bay to enhance its shields. To tone down skytoss, increase the cost of building Carrier’s interceptors.

Sentry

  • Guardian Shield radius increased from 4.5 to 5.5.

Warp Prism

  • Warp Prism has slow warp-in by default.
  • New research: Warp Matrix
    • Cost: 100/100, 57 seconds
    • Research from: Robotics Bay
    • Warp Prism gains Warp Conduit (e.g. fast warp-in) and upgrade increases pick up range from 5 to 6.

Colossus

  • New research: Null-Flux Generator
    • Cost: 150/150, 100 seconds
    • Research from: Robotics Bay
    • Enhances the defensive qualities of the colossus’ shield by increasing maximum shield from 100 to 150.

Robotics Facility

  • Cost increased from 150/100 to 200/100.

Carrier

  • Interceptors can no longer be auto-built (must be manually built).
  • Interceptor cost increased from 15 minerals to 20 minerals.

Zerg Adjustments

Discussion

Overall goal is to improve the iconic unit composition of Muta Ling Bane, improve anti-air support of Hydra, and promote more sneaky play with Burrow.

After many nerfs to Baneling, it should receive similar push treatment like Ultralisk as many times they get stuck behind allied units and get wasted before coming into contact with enemy. A new upgrade at Baneling Nest granting +5 HP might open up Hatchery strategies as it doesn’t require Lair, and Banelings will be able to survive 2 Roach attacks.

As Mutalisk is rarely seen and very gas intensive, decreasing gas cost while increasing mineral cost (overall cost same) will help offset high gas investment of Muta Ling Bane composition. To improve Mutalisk survivability, add upgrade at Spire to improve their innate tissue regeneration. To help improve Muta window of viability, I would like to propose a build time reduction for Spire and Greater Spire. Lastly, to offer a real transition, a new evolution will allow them to morph into Vipers and fits their namesake.

However, to prevent Mutalisk from dominating ZvZ, Grooved Spines upgrade of the Hydralisk will be +2 vs. Air (stay +1 vs. Ground). This will improve anti-air support of Hydralisk in all matchups.

Burrow

  • Research time decreased from 71 seconds to 57 seconds.

Baneling

  • Increased allied push priority from 0 to 1 (pushes units out of the way when moving).
  • New research: Thickened Pustules
    • Cost: 50/50, 57 seconds
    • Research from: Baneling Nest
    • Every Baneling gains +5 health (does NOT require Lair).

Mutalisk

  • Cost changed from 100/100 to 125/75.
  • Change Mutalisk Regeneration to recover health immediately after taking damage.
  • New research: Hardened Carapace
    • Cost: 200/200, 79 seconds
    • Research from: Spire
    • Increases the maximum HP of all Mutalisks from 120 HP to 140 HP. As a visual indicator for upgrade, the Mutalisk’s body will be slightly bulkier.

Spire / Greater Spire

  • Build time for Spire and Greater Spire decreased from 71 seconds to 57 seconds.

Hydralisk

  • Grooved Spines increases attack range of Hydralisks by +1 vs. Ground (+2 vs. Air).
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Lol you think they ever come to the forums? You sweet summer child!

4 Likes
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I don’t want to discourage you from posting on the forums, but most of these changes look bad to me.

I don’t think this is a good idea now that Ghosts are 3-supply.

This would be nice for mech, but I’m not sure it is balanced.

Hard no on all of this. Widow Mines are necessary for some strategies to work, and Ravens are definitely not worth 3-supply as a caster. Tying the two units together is a bad idea.

I am in favor of replacing auto-turrets with something else (for some of the same reasons why I supported removing Infested Terran), but the replacement has to be an actual third ability (such as defensive matrix).

That is just ridiculous. Armor upgrades should not affect spell damage, nor should they affect EMP’s energy drain. This is a bad idea for EMP, just like it is for Storm, Feedback, Parasitic Bomb, and Fungal.

Colossus are generally protected by Gateway units in front of them. I don’t think they need a durability boost.

I have no problem with this.

Swarm Hosts are a unit that the game is better off without.

7 armor is already extreme. 8 armor is absurd. Even if Ultralisks need a buff, this is not the right kind.

Microbial Shroud is a strong ability, and I don’t support its removal unless its replacement is better or easier to balance.

Just for the record, Microbial Shroud takes effect before armor, so it scales from a base of 50% up to 90% in some cases.

To use Carriers as an example, fully upgraded Interceptors deal 2x 8 damage. That gets cut down to 2x 4 damage, it can be reduced either to 2x 1 damage or 2x 0.5 damage depending on the target’s armor at +3 carapace. The 2x 0.5 comes from the fact that StarCraft units deal a minimum of 0.5 damage after armor.

This is a bad idea because it is far too niche. For one, this ability is only possible in one match-up. The conditions for getting the Command Center and training Infested Terran also severely limit its use cases.

If Infested Terran ever return (and they probably shouldn’t just because of the hefty overlap with Marines), they should be trained from a building that Zerg can actually make themselves.

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True, but doesn’t make sense Ghosts don’t have Light Tag as they’re infantry after all.

To balance, we could remove BOTH Light Tag and Biological Tag from Hellbat and only keep Mechanical Tag. They would make them more durable, but would lose Medivac healing?

My simpler idea was to increase gas cost of WM to be less cost efficient and replace Auto-Turret with Defensive Matrix as you stated. Updated OP.

Widow Mine

  • Cost increased from 75/25 to 75/50

Raven

  • Remove Build Auto-Turret ability.
  • Add Defensive Matrix ability.
    • Range: 10
    • Cost: 100 energy
    • Duration: 45 seconds
    • Absorbs 250 points of damage from all damage types.

I would rather see SHs improved to offer exciting gameplay rather than being removed. Having both Infestation Pit units of SHs and Infestors could see mobile burrowed hit squads… could create interesting gameplay.

I disagree here. Ultras should live up to their name, but still die to marines. Boosting armor would give more durability to these living battering rams.

It may be niche, but would be really exciting to see in-game when it happens. Plus, it brings back “Infest” to the Infestor. Not every ability needs to be a combat ability as it already has FG and NP.

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Not all infantry are light in SC2. Marauders are armored for example.

Part of the problem is that the lack of an armor or light tag has been baked into the Ghost’s balance for a very long time. Changing this would probably require other changes to balance it out.

I’m more worried about the loss of damage from Hellions, Adepts, Colossus, and Banelings. I myself am not a fan of the biological tag in the first place, although it does occasionally come into play.

I may be overthinking how much the light tag would come into play though; particularly for mech compositions that actually use Hellbats.

If that was the right course of action for Widow Mines, I am fairly certain that change would have already been implemented.

I don’t think Widow Mines need any more nerfs at this point. They are easier to see, they lost 26.5% of their splash area, they alert the opponent when they try to burrow within range of an enemy unit, and they require the Drilling Claws upgrade (locked behind an armory) to retain invisibility while on cooldown.

I am fine with this, although it might be better to use a lower cost and absorption amount, to limit the shear impact that a single cast might have in smaller engagements.

Miro does a better job than I do explaining the problem with Swarm Hosts, but to summarize: Swarm Hosts force the opponent to devote units and resources defending a location where the Swarm Hosts “are not”; and that is always a losing trade for the other player. The opponent is stuck trading resources against free units.

This unit only ever seems balanced when the Zerg player botches their use, or when they are not used at all. Swarm Hosts do not make the game any more exciting, nor do they fix any problem that Zerg actually has.

At 8 armor they won’t. Period! Marines at full upgrades will deal only 1 damage to Ultralisks. That is half the amount that they currently do (a measly 2 damage per hit).

The problem with Ultralisks is not how they deal with Marines. The Ultralisk’s problem is mostly just that their pathing and movement speed keeps them out of the fight.

You are getting rid of a better ability for nothing, and the “infest” ability would be so highly specialized that there is no justification to have it.

2 Likes
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True, even with Ghost having Light Tag, it will still be an S Tier unit.

For Hellbat, the Light Tag should be removed to make this unit more resilient to Banelings in TvZ and Collossi in TvP. Also, since Archons do bonus damage to Biological, I also suggest removing Biological Tag from Hellbat to encourage more mech compositions against Protoss. Removing Biological also prevents healing from Medivac.

I think everyone will agree WMs have insane cost effectiveness, so increasing gas cost slightly seems like a good change.

Agreed, here is the update to OP…

Raven

  • Remove Build Auto-Turret ability.
  • Add Defensive Matrix ability.
    • Range: 10
    • Cost: 75 energy
    • Duration: 25 seconds
    • Absorbs 150 points of damage from all damage types.

Went with a different approach. As Swarm Hosts are usually paired with Nydus Worms, the creep spread would synergize with Queens, creation of Spores, benefits Locusts, etc. Updated OP.

Swarm Host

  • Add Generate Creep ability.
    • When activated, the Swarm Host will start to generate creep, spreading out to a 3x3 area. Swarm Host can only do this while burrowed.
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No, you would probably need to buff Ghosts or revert a nerf to them.

Personally, I am fine with that, but testing would be necessary to determine if it is balanced.

No, a cost increase is not justified.

Widow Mines are only cost-efficient when the opponent doesn’t respond to them properly. The opponent can bait them out with a worker or Zergling, Protoss Stalkers can blink to dodge shots, most ranged units with detection can kill Widow Mines without getting into range to be shot, etc.

Widow Mines are only “cheap” because some of them are expected to be duds.

I would have probably done 50 energy and an absorption limit of 125-150, but this kind of thing could be fine-tuned with testing.

That doesn’t fix anything.

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I’ll have to disagree with you here, Ghost would still be S Tier with this minor change.

Not everyone is a pro player, the WM is overly punishing to low-level players. It’s arguably one of the most hated units, alongside SH.

Agree with you and updated OP with the following…

Swarm Host

  • Redesigned Swarm Host (SH) and no longer spawns free timed-life locusts. Unit now behaves more like a “land carrier,” creating up to 3 permanent locusts (instead of 2), and locust costs 10 minerals each (can be rebuilt upon destruction). Acid spit of new locusts has 6 DPS +6 vs light (total 36 DPS vs light, 18 vs armored). Locusts will return to SH when there are no more targets in range, or the SH moves away. Locusts are still able to fly over terrain and use their swoop ability to land and begin their attack.
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Another reason as to why this forums is dead. All Protoss trolls making these type of threads

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Protoss troll? I’m proposing slight nerfs to very powerful Warp Prism and Oracle while buffing lackluster Sentry and Colossus. You always see Warp Prism and Oracle, and rarely see Sentry and Colossus. Seems like reasonable changes to me.

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This may be true, but you should consider pro play alongside casual play, not just casual play. And this doesn’t address the punishing aspect, especially since casual players aren’t good at spending all of their resources, it affects pro play more than casual play.

So what is the reason Widow Mines feel so punishing? Is it because of their cost? No, it’s because a single Widow Mine shot can do so much damage. It’s a very all-or-nothing type of unit.

So how to mitigate that? You gotta make it less all-or-nothing. What are ways to do that? My preferred way is to reduce its damage, allow it to be targeted while it’s locking on, and make it cheaper + less supply-heavy and quicker to build so you can have a lot of them. Intended result: more Mines are likely to hit because they are more numerous, but they also have some additional counterplay to reward micro and each hit is less punishing.

Now, that might not be the right set of changes if testing proves the intended effect doesn’t occur, or if there are unintended undesirable side effects, but that’s just one example of thinking about a problematic unit, identifying the issue, and thinking of changes to address that specific issue.

3 Likes
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It’s a massive change, particularly against Banelings in TvZ. I seriously doubt that you could give Ghosts the light tag without significantly buffing them elsewhere to compensate.

First, Widow Mines are nowhere near as bad as Swarm Hosts. Widow Mines force players to micro, most iterations of Swarm Hosts forced players to waste hours fighting free units at no cost to the Swarm Host player.

Second, Banelings are also very punishing to low-level players, but you don’t see many people complaining about them because Terrans are actually expected to micro their Marines. If a Terran player cannot deal with Banelings, it is considered an L2P issue.

That might work, although it would require a lot of testing. I might try something like that in my mod.

2 Likes
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I did this in my Project: Justice mod, using the Mutalisk/Widow Mine interaction and large army encounters to tweak it. Ended up with multiple damage radii (more damage closer to the center, less damage further from the center) to make it feel right.

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Could you give me a rundown of the stats you used?

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How about a slight reduction in the WM splash damage? This could help reduce the overly punishing nature of this unit…

Widow Mine

  • Sentinel Missile splash damage reduced from 40 +25 vs. shields to 30 +20 vs. shields.

What do you think about the new proposal for SH in OP? :thinking:

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Well, using Locusts as mineral-priced units like Interceptors is not a bad idea, but there also needs to be a defined leash range.

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It was a while back, I’ll need to fire up the game but probably won’t be able to until next week.

If you want it before then, I adapted a unit tester for it- if you search “project justice unit tester” or “unit tester project justice” it should come up. And the mod is open so should be able to find it in the galaxy editor (the ability that makes it targetable while locking on is there too if you want to copy it).

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I would need to see what units are no longer 1- or 2-shot by this to really answer. Since it’s fairly balanced at pro levels though, I lean more towards tradeoff change than a straight nerf.

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One idea to improve Mutalisk is to have a Spire upgrade that improves its tissue regen. The upgraded rate of 3.5 HP/second is half that of the Roach while burrowed. What do you guys think?..

Mutalisk

  • New research: Hyper Regeneration
    • Cost: 150/150, 57 seconds
    • Research from: Spire
    • Mutalisk’s Tissue Regeneration is at a faster rate of 3.5 HP/second (up from 1.4 HP/second).
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It is a bad idea to nerf the Widow Mine’s damage without the other changes that NinjaDuckBob suggested–lower cost, lower supply, etc. Lowering the damage while keeping the Widow Mine the same will only cause more problems.

The numbers you suggested would be particularly problematic, since Widow Mines would one-shot Probes and not any other workers; and they would struggle to kill anything else with splash damage.

1 Like