Post nerf Zeratul Solo Brutal+10 (< 40APM)

Co-op Missions Discussion
1

So after hearing a lot of whinings within the community, I decided to test out post-nerf Zeratul.
This is a custom mutation with 6 mutators against Sky Terran. Here is the list of mutators along with their difficulty.

  • BlackDeath (7)
  • Minesweeper (6)
  • MicroTransaction (5)
  • Fatal Attraction (3),
  • Fear (3)
  • Self-Destruction (3).

Total Difficulty Score: 27. This would put this mutation set at Brutal +10 (Brutal+6 is only 20 max, 2 scores/ level).

This set hard-counter any commanders that control an army. This is to prove two points:

  • Zeratul cannons strategy is still well and alive despite the outcry of community.
  • Despite the nerf, it’s just a matter of time before you get that mass critical of cannons and the cannons still bypass majorities of nasty mutators.

As you can see, post nerf Zeratul is totally not broken.
Personally, I don’t think any commander can solo this mutation set, let alone at ~ 40 APM.

I challenge anyone who can use any other commanders and can still win this with less than 40 APM

So, good work on coop devs, I’m happy with these changes so far :+1:
You guys should be proud. With a little cost increase, Zeratul have been successfully upgraded from “recommended for 5-year-old” to “recommended for 12-year-old” :joy:

Suggestion:
Even though Zeratul changes are great, let’s push it a little bit further.
I would suggest adding another extra 25% tax on the cannons and make it 500 minerals/cannon. Alternatively, we can reduce cannons cost back to 250 and force cannons to teleport themself to the front-line, now Zeratul players have to think twice before teleporting theirs cannons. This will greatly balance this low-APM high reward style and bring unity to coop community (or chaos perhaps).

Please take this post with a grain of salt although I’m sure we will get enough salt for the rest of the year within this post

Thanks Maguro for posting mutators ranking and keep the arcade map up-to-date. You guys can find all the rankings here:

www.maguro.one/2019/12/brutal-analysis.html

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Updated:
Upon reading the requests of some people, you guys seem to be upset that this map and the mutator set is perfect for defense play. Some people demand to see a more offensive map. Also, my play is too good to be true for some, not a typical scenario for your “average” Zeratul with all the sloppiness and being a deadweight to ally if he goes cannons.
So I decided to make another video with some adjustments.
Map: Cradle of Death
Gameplay:

  • Add Karax teammate for emotional support (ty DieTrying :two_hearts:)
  • Add extra sloppiness (just me being drunk)

Mutator set:

  • BlackDeath (7)
  • Minesweeper (6)
  • MicroTransaction (5)
  • Fatal Attraction (3),
  • Fear (3)
  • Self-Destruction (3)
  • Eminent Domain (1) As Requested

As you can see, despite my garbage play, we still managed to win in our 1st attempt. Was it easier? Oh, definitely when you got carried, I only got 2/3 of Karax kills, Karax ally is very good. Do I need to stop making cannons when Eminent Domain is present? I should, but I didn’t. Did it work? Not beautifully, but for sure. Can cannons be used on offensive maps? Yes, even against mutator designed to hard-counter cannon style.
Endgame result:

i.imgur. com/KjFCDyA.jpg

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Extra Updates: Since somebody said this brutal+10 set is much easier than Brutal+6 sets so I teamed up with wzysb for a few Brutal+6 matches. Maps are randomized. We did 4 rerolls to get these 3 doable sets. Since probably you are already bored of my noob Zeratul style, we switched roll for the later 2 replays. wzysb is probably much better than me with Zeratul.
We won 1st try on Void Launch, 1 retry each for the other 2.

  • Polarity
  • Microtransaction
  • Mutual Destruction
  • Agressive Deployment
  • Black Death
  • Void Rifts
  • Long Range
  • Black Death
  • Just Die
  • Mutual Destruction

Results: imgur. com/a/UuGVnTJ

13 Likes
2

Those are literally the easiest mutators you could have possibly ever gotten especially when going mass static defense.

9 Likes
3

And you only won because you allowed for quite some shuttles to escape.

4/10

8 Likes
4

Next level:

18 mutators
Total Difficulty Score: 63,5
Plying only with one hand, one eye and drunk :smiley:

4 Likes
5

He’s right. If you can only solo Brutal mutations with mass cannons under 40 APM with easy mutators, cannons aren’t good enough.

5 Likes
6

I pick those mutators for a reason: they hard-counter any commander that controls an army (>90% of coop commanders need to control an army), now imagine there is a single commander that can bypass all of these mutators without a sweat. Does it seem fair when a $5 Zeratul is much easier than a $5 Swann (replaced with any commander that you think is garbage)?

6 Likes
7

Karax, Swann, Mengsk, and maybe even Stukov and Vorazun static defense would have had just as easy of a time on this especially when going against terran air which means for like 3/4ths of the match you only have to deal with liberators ravens and vikings which static defense is really good and almost even immune against.

6 Likes
8

You have the mutation set, feel free to try out the challenge. Replays are worth more than a thousand words.

9 Likes
9

Should have add eminent domain on Temple of the past or Dead of night. Then maybe you can prove something.
No offense but the map you test is too easy. It can be done with any commander with decent static defense.

5 Likes
10

What would he be proving then? Please spell it out for me. Is it:

“You would prove that Zeratul’s cannons are viable only by winning a Brutal mutation, solo, with less than 40 APM, with a mutator that hard counters static defence, on top of a Brutal + 10 quantity of mutators that only hard counter the hero and top bars?”

1 Like
11

This doesn’t matter since enemy willl be coming to you, thus you only need to turtle up which can be done by any commander with decent static defense.
Temple of the past FORCE you to come to their base, this map doesn’t.
This map is basically “Turtle up to win” kind of map.

3 Likes
12

You didn’t answer my question. Would you be more willing to choose a commander with decent static defence and doing the OP’s challenge plus Eminent Domain? That’s the bar for proving a commander’s static defence is adequate, right?

3 Likes
13

Actually, just do Brutal +6 with random map on. This would prevent bias saying that we are picking mutator in Zeratul favor.

3 Likes
14

I see this attitude sometimes in the gym:

-Random guy benching 400 lbs

  • Other guy: “This prooves nothing, this is easy, I can do this, any random guy from the office can do this!” - stucked under 150lb barbbell 10 seconds later
3 Likes
15

No, you said the OP’s video doesn’t demonstrate anything. The implication is that even inadequate static defence can do this. So show me adequate static defence doing the OP’s challenge plus worse.

16

Let me make it simple:

1/ “Canons dead, cannons useles, cannons worthless”

2/ Some guy finishes mutation which not a single army commander can do, maybe not any other commander except Swann or Karax, which are supoosed to be excelent at defending (Zera cannons useles, remeber?)

3/ “This prooves nothing”

… What the hell is going on?

8 Likes
17

Well, guess what. I can do this with just one probe using Karax as the commander. It doesn’t prove anything because all of the mutations doesn’t do anything vs static defense. All of it on a map where turtle is encourage.
And Karax isn’t even consider as a commander by most people on this foroum.

6 Likes
18

Cool! So you’ve already said what it would take to bump this up to something that could prove something: adding Eminent Domain. Come back when you’ve done that with Karax, I’d really like to see! Let’s establish what adequate static defence is capable of doing and then we can see if Zeratul is up to it anymore.

5 Likes
19

In coop logic that means now everyone has to bench 400 lbs, so attach the weights to the bar in a non-removable way, and remove lighter plates from the gym. Just “gid gud” and bench 400, bro :rofl: :rofl:

20

No, in co.op logic, you have to work harder to reach 400lb mark (improove your skills) or you just have to use lower weights (you know, lower difficulty - casual/normal). Got it?