Played most of the popular RTS games, heres my take

Warcraft 3

Pros:
High production value in pretty much everything (in classic) still unmatched to this day in terms of macro/micro composite skill complexity. Units have usable skills but only the heros level up - and can buy items. In terms of feature rich depth this is still the king imo. Before reforged the custom game lobby was home to the original DOTA ALLSTARS (those were the days)

Cons:
Armies are real smol, like 10 units most of the time. so this never really gets that grand battle feeling of other games, obviously this could be a pro if you prefer an army which has like a quarter of the units in other RTS games which field larger battles. Reforged is unfortunately a downgrade from battle.net and has abysmal matchmaking algorithms.

BFME2 Return Of The Witch King

Pros:
Extraordinary production value is almost on par with warcraft 3 - they got all the voice actors from the movies! Nothing leading urakai into battle with soroman or raising the army of the dead with aragorn. The counter system is straightfoward and every single unit/squad gains experience and levels up with kills. Field relatively large armies of around 100- 200 troops at a time AND use god-ish powers upon the field of battle (such as shining down “the eye” or starting an earthquake. Features the same creep mechanics as WC3 minus items/inventories. For team games this is hands down the best overall RTS experience. Plus you only need 2-4 workers which is refreshing (income comes from buildings). And most importantly, you can zoom way out and see more than in most other RTS games.

Cons:
The competetive online multiplayer community is somewhat small and underground, the platform used to host held up entirely by crowdfunding so off-hours may have just a handful of games going at any given time. There are certain aspects cough such as the infamous high elf great eagle which seem a little out of place are arent fun to play against - but thankfully people know this and just avoid picking high elf in team games for more fun or ban it outright.

Starcraft 2

Pros:
The most heavily tuned competitive RTS on the market with 3 entirely unique species to play as which have almost nothing in common. Gameplay is smooth, crisp and optimized. The competitive scene is unmatched in the RTS realm so if youve got the patience to get really great you can be a grand champion in Esports some day. Custom game lobbies are poppin with all sorts of unique ways to play, and theres a co-op mode!
For people who dislike the unit complexities of other games, such as leveling up and item inventories, this game offers a far more simplistic and polished approach.

Cons:
It may be a con for some as to the simplicity of the game on its surface and armies are relatively small within 10-40 units typically. the camera is very zoomed in and requires so much panning that people have come up with a hotkey system to jump to areas of the map which could honestly be taken as a whole if the camera was zoomed out, which would have alleviated the need for arthritis-inducing APM to even play the game normally. Many of the systems in Sc2 are meant to challenge speed similar to how a typing test challenges words per miniute albeit there are indeed some people who prefer this sort of thing over more mechanically optimized RTS games such as C&C Kanes Wrath.

C&C Kanes Wrath

Pros:
The king of micro-heavy gameplay. An entirely unique take on RTS resource management which -indebts- you to the units you purchase as theyre built instead of the lump sum cost of every other RTS game,and requires far fewer workers to macro only a single resourse type, allowing you to spend your focus on the ultra-high speed battles where early/mid game units die almost instantly to their counters with only the slow moving hunky endgame units with any staying power. Features two highly unique human factions and a third alien faction, all with several subfactions. Battles can feel grand when fielding armies of 60-100 units ranging from infantry squads, tanks, and even swarms of alien insects which are all firing rockets/lasers/railguns ect to create the coolest looking battlescape of any RTS to date.

Cons:
Very tiny underground online community of players to play with on a platform held up entirely by crowdfunding. Extremely unforgiving for new players who may never even last longer than 4 mins since the game is extremely fast paced and micro heavy. Team games are poorly optimized unfortunately as the game recieved very little polish over time, but hey im glad i got to play this on the 360 back in its hayday!

Age of Empires 2&4

Pros:
This is the macro kingpin with four resource types to manage. Lots of thematic variety and quirky (in a good way) audio production. To me it is a pro that this RTS does not feature Flying units, which means walls actually play a larger part than any other RTS game. The micro is very slow paced and games are much longer and in many cases more satisfying than other RTS games when taking into account most matches will last around 10-30 mins on average with lots of oppertunity to outhink your opponent - youll find an older crowd here even in the e-sport scene where the top player is a 34 year old dudebro in aoe4. amies in 4 are large enough to feel massive at times (up to like 120 units-ish) especially in team games or FFA. Has the best FFA gameplay hands down (actualy thought put into it).

Cons:
Suffers the same camera zoom symptom of starcraft 2 in a game which would greatly benefit from a more zoomed out camera angle, leading to copius amounts of panning or hotkeying map sections. Some RNG based maps, while refreshing, can be a huge bane if you get a “bad spawn”, these are also featured on ladder and tournements beleive it or not. Armies in 2 are small but that game is ancient, armies in 4 are large enough to feel massive at times (up to like 120 units-ish) especially in team games or FFA. Has the best FFA gameplay hands down (actualy thought put into it). Team games are typically a steamroll and 1v1 leans on whatever FOTM meta is which can be a pro depending on how you look at it (slowly and ever evolving meta) which can at times be very bad like someothing being absolutely overpowered.

not gonna lie this Essay would be better on Reddit and not here

2 Likes

wc3 the goat for sure i still play that more than this and tons of its custom maps. pacing was better game had more depth more about understanding than mechanical prowess the game to try and emulate.

The engine in this games better and its really well done but the core mechanic of workers and killing workers and every second being one that could ruin it all is not as fun as wc3. The hero mechanic was so good it spawned entire genres of games form the customs

Debating on reddit is a good way to lose karma and get banned. Redditors are also living in another dimension and so what could they possibly contribute to the conversation. The engineering and science subreddits can be more reasonable but even they get overrun with 0iq normies from time to time. Reddit is good for sharing dog memes and promoting misinformation to gullible people using dog memes, and that’s about it.

I had a conversation with a guy just the other night who legitimately thought tariffs are either good and should be used or bad and should not be used. He thought he caught DRUMPF supporters in a contradiction because DRUMPF rolled back tariffs which showed he, DRUMPF, was too stupid to know tariff=bad.

The reality is that tariffs leverage access to American consumers to achieve foreign policy goals. They are an extremely versatile tool and expecting a consistent methodology for their use is pure lunacy.

Guys like that are exactly why reddit is an absolute joke. He’s not the exception-- he is the norm. I think covid caused harm to cognition and it will eventually be discovered to have had an effect similar to leaded gasoline. I’d estimate covid deleted 20 years of developmental progress. Even worse, there is evidence it increases aging plus risk of developing dementia. Translation, this is just the start of an accelerated cognitive decline. Something similar happened with Parkinsons andtge 1918 flu epidemic.

Severe COVID-19 induces molecular signatures of aging in the human brain: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8629201/

Translation, average cognitive performance is going to be super low for at least 20 years, when a new generation of people pop up who didn’t experience covid, so relying on any system that promotes the average or mediocre will be a terrible idea. It’s already very noticeable because they can’t understand something as simple as a tariff.

If you want a good debate, head on over to your local university or email their professors directly. Alternatively, you can find the works of people such as Dijkstra and read them instead. Dijkstra was a computer science genius and video games are an application of computer science and so by reading his works you can really understand how video games work on a fundamental level. Here is an article which is highly relevant to the progression of Artificial Intelligence but it also has broad application for understanding human beings on a fundamental level (and systems operated by human beings, such as reddit):

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD667.html

We know in the meantime that the choice of an interface is not just a division of (a fixed amount of) labour, because the work involved in co-operating and communicating across the interface has to be added. We know in the meantime —from sobering experience, I may add— that a change of interface can easily increase at both sides of the fence the amount of work to be done (even drastically so). Hence the increased preference for what are now called “narrow interfaces”. Therefore, although changing to communication between machine and man conducted in the latter’s native tongue would greatly increase the machine’s burden, we have to challenge the assumption that this would simplify man’s life.

TLDR simplyfing the interface can’t improve the user experience because the simplifications make assumptions about what the end user wants to do. The only way to make a computer do exactly what you want it to do is to arduously input the exact commands that tell the computer exactly what to do. This illustrates the communication barrier problem, which in simple terms is that you have to already know what someone is going to say before they even say it, aka you have the same base assumptions, otherwise their speech is too vague and open to interpretation to know what it is they are saying.

So this applies to video game discussion on reddit because they say “Protoss OP!” but what does that even mean? They don’t even know. They screech at one another like monkeys, swinging from trees, while not even knowing what it is that they are saying, or what it is that other people are saying. Their speech is too vague, lacking technicality and nuance, to even know what it is they mean. That’s why it’s totally useless to talk with them. They expect you to magically know what it is they mean when they say “Protoss OP!” when they don’t even know what it means to them.

In a computer science sense, this would be a statement that the compiler could interpret to have multiple meanings. Programming languages are designed so that it is impossible to define a single statement with multiple meanings, and this allows the computer to know exactly what the programmer wants it to do, and that means if the program does something you didn’t like then it’s your fault.

Communication with normies simply lacks any technical nuance and that means you are just making assumptions about what it is they are saying. This is why balance whiners are impossible to reason with. You can’t even agree on what it is you are arguing about. If you take the time to actually define what it is you are discussing, they will whine and cry and say the post is too long. Communication is then about agreement. They make friends based on whether those people have a similar set of assumptions and, if so, this allows them to communicate and understand one another, and that allows them to be friends. In the eyes of the average human being, communication is equivalent to agreement. The purpose of communicating is to agree. This highlights an obvious problem for communicating with people with different assumptions, and that’s where 99% of the turbulence in internet discussions come from. They see you as an enemy or as an other because in being unable to communicate with you they conflate this as disagreement. Why could you possible disagree? Because you are a bad person with bad motives. Remember, their assumptions are as true as the air around them in their minds, and so the only way to disagree is to be crazy or malicious. That’s why communication on internet platforms is impossible. Communication is agreement and if you can’t communicate that means you disagree; if you disagree then you are literally hitler because only hitler could disagree that water is wet. If you are hitler, then I am justified in screeching like a monkey that is being attacked by a tiger.

These forums have an advantage that reddit does not. On reddit, the normies are allowed to harass you with downvotes, and if you get enough downvotes the subreddit is programmed to auto ban you. This website straight up doesn’t allow downvoting. If you disagree, you have to respond using words & that’s what the normies hate about it. On the old forums you could downvote, and every post I ever made was always downvoted to -50. Even then, it’s not as bad as reddit because reddit would then auto ban you. You would think it’s insulting to be downvoted, but once you realize just how incompetent the average redditor is it actually becomes a compliment. But none the less it prevents any real discussions because if you ever bring a different set of assumptions to the debate it causes them to have an aneurysm.

As far as what made various different RTS games succeed, there have really only been 1 big RTS game and it was SC2. What made it big was korea. Blizzard gave korean the middle finger at 2015 blizzcon by banning koreans from most tournaments. They got the message and went back to playing broodwar. The rest of the world doesn’t really like RTS that much, as it is implemented by Starcraft at least, which is why League and Dota are so popular. Blizzard banned koreans to grow RTS in regions that weren’t going to like their version of RTS and it was a big miscalculation.

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Reply @ Adventurer

Quite the contrary, RTS were popularized due to the limited capabilites of computers and limited gaming on consoles in the 90’s. Most people already had a computer, and starcraft (the first one) ran great and was a cool game like a board game but way better

“It was the best we had at the time” is a pretty bad plan for the future. You want elements of past success that are still relevant today. If you plan on making RTS great again by making it run great on 90’s computers, good luck.

SC2’s success definitely came from the popularity of the Starcraft brand inside Korea. This time around, it had to compete with other games so merely being able to run on a 90’s computer wasn’t the end all be all litmus test of a successful game. Consumers could choose what they like the best. SC2 ramped up army size, put most emphasis on macro, while League and Dota reduced army size and put emphasis on micro. League to this day is ~1700x more popular than SC2. Sc2 is so unpopular, mobile games like Clash of the Clans make ~10x more money.

Starcraft had a loyal following, inside Korea, of people who like Starcraft for its features, and Blizzard used anti asian racism to give them the bird. They gambled big time that they could grow Starcraft’s popularity in EU and America, and that gamble did not pay off.

Getting Korea back is going to be borderline impossible. That means a future Starcraft will have to compete for space against MOBAs, and that requires toning down the multitasking by reducing the emphasis on macro. Multitasking simply isn’t popular outside of korea, and that means the age of macro-rts games is over.

EDIT: just looked it up. League is more popular than SC2 even in Korea. The age of macro RTS is truly over.

Perfect example: https://i.imgur.com/4Gs0wBT.png

There is no way a person with a master in computer science can’t manage how many tabs he has open. I guarantee every person with a CS degree has custom compiled their browser for their particular CPU architecture and personally optimized their computer hardware so that they can have 1,000 tabs open simultaneously with no lag. Furthermore, they will have coded a custom firefox plugin that optimizes the organization of the tabs. But reddit is convinced “schrodinger’s CS grad” is simultaneously smart enough to get one of the most difficult degrees on earth while being too dumb to manage a web browser. Her comment has 1.4k likes. They are living in another dimension.

I visited a buddy of mine in New Mexico, while traveling for a business trip, and this guy introduced me to a keyboard for Android which allows you to encode characters not only by what button you tap, but also what direction you slide your finger after tapping the button. This allows you to have 5 characters per button. This allows him to have access to a full keyboard layout on an android screen. Sure, CS grads can’t manage their browser tabs. Yeah, right.

why not starcraft 1 broodwar? scared to play ranked?