Is it really needed so hard counter? Or that hard? Never seen that zerg surprised a toss with hidden Spire. So Mutalisk is no more cheese unit that can surprise unpripared toss, but also not a fighting unit. I know Blizzard cares no more about balance or units, I just complain, how on earth can 1 unit completly deny a tech path?? In TvZ there is Thor, Marines and Mines… as zerg you can outplay them - so there is a challenge who is better. In PvZ You can somehow engage 1-2 Archons with split, but Phoenix?? simply no way! 6+ Phoenix 1 shot Mutalisk, they are faster so I cant even pull back and with 1 more range? Cmon. I know… whining about dead game… sad
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Its not just phoenix man.
muta is useless in almost all match ups even with a hidden spire.
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The game is full of such things. Scans that invalidate DT, EMP that invalidate Archons…Why you are so worried about mutas when there are more important units that have 3x more hard-counters and 6x more soft-counters (Colossus).
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Because its boring for causual player… always Hydra Roach Ravager. Muta Ling Bane was so good and dynamic, but yeah, its past.
And about DT’s - its not a dead tech… you can still use them as fighting unit as Archon, but Mutas are completly dead investment.
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Hmm and Colossi, Idk, they were always a tool to survive until Storm and until terran doesnt has enought Vikings (which are after no more Colossi on field, almost dead supply) so Colossi is in not best spot, but its still good. Gateway units are countered by Bio, bio by Colossi, Colossi by Viking etc etc… so its so fluid
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Yeah wouldn’t it be so great if you could just make muta and auto win? Because that’s what would happen if Phoenix didn’t counter them.
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Yep. Archons do counter mutas but there are micro tricks that can reverse that. Same for thors. For Phoenix, there is literally nothing that can be done - they hard counter mutas to an extreme and there is no way around that. Mutas are a dead unit.
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No, to get Mutas is not auto win. They are expensive, so 5-8 has a problem with Canon/Turret… 8+ means you have not so much fighting units (good units)…
And to fight Thors/Archons exactly! There is a hold position trick or split, when they spread so u can engage them, then pull back and let them regen (as intented) … but with Phoenix simply not! They spot you and thats it
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That’s not true at all. Lots of Zergs try muta against Protoss and lose without phoenix ever being made.
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The problem is that as a surprise unit mutas are practically an auto-win against Protoss.
So they have to be freakishly expensive.
Which means a good protoss will never get surprised by them.
So they never get used.
But also the muta counters have to be stupidly hard counters, because otherwise the response time is too long to stop a muta switch from just winning.
Protoss non-muta counters need to be less hopeless against mutas, so that Phoenix and archons can be less hard counter.
Then mutas can be made cheaper because surprise mutas aren’t as strong, so mutas can get used.
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I just wanna say, there is no reward if you are better as zerg… simply not! phoenix on the scene, Mutas are dead!
Just an example: marrines are countered by banes, but you can be rewarded if you are faster to pre splitting. Colossi is countered by Viking, but if the Protoss player is better, he can stutter step with Colossi and take down Vikings with Stalkers (before Storm done), Thor vs Mutalisk again, rewarded a better player etc etc. Your skills are rewarded! But Muta Phoenix war never! U cannt outmicro them (also because Phoenix smart targeting and fast shooting while moving - u cannt pull back targeted Mutalisk…) and they are so fast
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We’ve done this dance every time this topic comes up - that is not even remotely close to true. The only way a protoss auto-dies to mutas is if he is playing tremendously crappy in more ways than just scouting. For example, a mere 10 mutas is the equivalent to 48 roaches. At the moment, immortal+archon timings are so difficult to defend that blizzard is nerfing the prism, so if the protoss is caught off guard by mutas he can literally just forget about his economy and 1a into the zergs base and win. In order to lose to mutas, the protoss has to be so far behind that the zerg can afford to lose 48 roaches.
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No. More like they’re somewhat viable if the Protoss doesn’t see them coming. If Zerg doesn’t see ANY type of attack coming from Protoss it’s an auto loss.
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What kind of warped logic brought us here?
I have seen protoss GG out at pro level when 14 mutas flew into their base without the mutas even getting a chance to attack. I have NEVER seen Zerg not at least put up a significant fight in ZvP to any kind of all-in, even 2 base immortal. Hard to believe that Zerg happened to blind counter literally every time based on that 1 overlord that died to a stalker or sentry 3 minutes ago.
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Sure, there are units that “beat” mutalisks other than phoenix. None of those units can actually force the muta player to take a fight, phoenix are the only unit that can actually do that. Outside of the zerg being terrible and trying to fight archons straight up your only options to stop a muta player are to cede the entire map and camp in your base hoping you can stall for phoenix or immediately go for the base trade.
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You mean like zerg has to do with phoenix opener? Plop down spores, make queens and drones and hope you can out macro the losses you’ll take?
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Not Phoenix opener. Read again pls. I said there is no other relationship between 2 units in game as between Phoenix and Mutalisk. Marrine vs Banes - winner is a better player,Ling vs Helions again, Mutalisk vs Archon again, a better player wins. But Phoenix vs Mutalisk… is simply stupidly Op
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Pretty much.
There are some upgraded speedling plays you can make if you catch it fast, but if that gets shut down you’re in a very bad spot.
Mutas are one of the most fun and `Zergy’ units to use. Zerg as a race is designed around map control. But they are mediocre at best vs Terran bio, useless vs mech, or a protoss with phoenix.
Literal years of patches have been implemented to get mech to the point of being usable in TvP. As an iconic, interesting to use unit with a much higher skillcap than the standard roach fare, mutas need a bit of attention too.
Sure. And as I said Mutalisk must be countered by Phoenix, but not completly shutted down! There has to be something that can be done with micro. For example running away, or some split counter micro against Phoenix. But they are faster, tankyer, shooting while dancing arround, and super high dps. Its sad
Entirely different, because of the way the races are designed. Protoss and Terran are required to kill drones or they lose the game for free. Killing a bunch of drones with Phoenix means the game is even. Killing a bunch of probes and forcing the Protoss to stay at home while you take the entire map means you just won the game.
Zerg allready has the stronger late game, and Protoss best timing is getting nerfed, do we really need Mutas being overpowered again on top of that? Besides which you allready have a zero risk way to murder your opponents mineral lines in Swarm Host/ Nydus.
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