Patch did nothing and the maps suck

General Discussion
21

Unless I’m mistaken, a clump of 4 un-combat shielded, un-stimmed, medivacless marines should be able to kill 1 Chargelot. Add either 1 of those upgrades and that zealot is super dead.

What are you going off out of curiosity?

Aligulac balance report? According to that the current state is within 1% of 50/50.

High level? In recent events since the patch, PvT is actually 45/55 in TERRAN’S favor.

Your own experience on ladder? Well for me, last season my TvP was my closest to 50/50, and both this season and last season PvT was my worst protoss matchup, though partly that’s due to playing terrans far above my level thanks to my 80-ish% winrate in PvP for the last few years.

My thoughts on what is wrong with protoss, it’s the insane supporting power of the prism and the sentry, and the general weakness of everything without prisms and sentries.

22

Dude can you just stop whining? Terran are in a nice place. They can reaper harass, dont get screwed by adapts as hard because wall off. Missile Turrets for Oracles. Rush to BC and gg.

BC’s are really OP so if you still cant make the game end by having 4 BC’s you are probably a noob.

Zealots need to be strong in a direct fight because else Protoss cant get to the Siege tanks.

Plus with the warp prisms costing more it really isnt an issue.

2 Likes
23

So, according to Protoss whiners, if one side has like 70% win rate in early-mid game (doing proxy cheeses and 2 base all-ins) that other side has problems holding (because of playing to greedy), and that for any other gameplay style it has like ~30% chance of winning (but even then it holds on killing large amount of probes during the early game) and overall matchup is 50 50 then this means that balance is good? Am I right?

1 Like
24

just stating my opinion but, I am sure a lot of terran players would agree with me that zealots are the main reason that the match up is skewed towards toss. Yes, in theory 1 zealot will never win against 4 to 5 marines. well not even 2 because you could technically micro it to death… However, this is not a similation and in real times facing 20 zealots… you will never be able to micro your army in that way

but there lies the problem. 20 zealots early on. cost 100 minerals no gas and trade extremely efficient against mech. Then the question becomes how can toss get 20 zeals defend against early rushes and at the same time claim a 3rd against terran with relative ease.

Maybe zealots are not the problem in the match up. If not that then it has to be the early mineral lead allows toss to be super agreesive against terran without consequence. I’ve played against toss players that failed cannon rushes and keep playing… And thats b/c they consider that throw away resources and they are still on even ground with terran… There has to be a punishment for toss for getting that fast 3rd or failing a rush. currently there is not.

3 Likes
25

Well, firstly, I don’t see 2 base-all-ins exclusively in TvP, unlike what we saw in PvZ recently. If it was really 70/30, that would be far more than enough for terran to do the whole same build 4 times in a best of 7.

But in any case, let’s look at the problem from the protoss side of things: protoss in current PvT is balanced around staying ahead.

In small scales, the terran army is more cost efficient than the protoss one, and when protoss doesn’t either have a tech advantage or significant army value advantage, the terran army is SIGNIFICANTLY more cost efficient. On the flip side, the protoss army trades cost efficiently when it is ahead in either tech or value, and the overall scale is reasonably large.

So how does protoss stay ahead in order to not just melt to the terran army? Well, partly chrono, but primarily warp gate.

Warp gate means that when terran attacks a protoss, the protoss is 2 whole production cycles ahead. Meanwhile, terran buildings lose their first production cycle to building add-ons, while protoss warp gates start off cooldown so they get a free production cycle upon completion. So when you see protoss just starting gateways, you have less than 60 seconds until those gates have each already produced a zealot. When you see terran start their barracks, it will be almost 60 seconds before they can start the reactor finally, let alone actually making units.

So protoss takes advantage of this sluggish terran infrastructure by taking a fast third. But what many terrans seem to miss is that they don’t just take a third because they can, but because they must.

Just look at how stim bio mauls equal cost of zealot/stalker. But of course, usually what we see is blink stalkers accumulating stupid amounts of value in the window before stim finishes. Or watch how fast zealot/archon/Templar melts with just a few well placed EMPs. But in most real games, by the time ghosts are out in force, so are colossi or disruptors, and the stargates are on the way because the ranged libs are sure to come.

So the resulting matchup isn’t ideal: terran is unhappy because it feels like they are always behind, always losing, and Protoss is unhappy because you can tally up advantage after advantage, but if your colossi are just 30 seconds late none of it matters and you instantly lose.

6 Likes
26

There lies a majority of the problem… How do we make it to where terran doesnt feel so far behind yet, Toss doesnt have to have every upgrade/tech advantage to win. I don;'t know if there is a way to fix it. thus the match up feels broken. If hell bats with med traded better… I dont know…

27

Yep Protoss is still ahead in economy by default, if only Blizzard sc2 team werent coper leaguer who dont play the game

1 Like
28

Okay good. I mean if you don’t like the game why torture yourself playing it?

29
  1. TvP is supposed to have terran ahead in economy because terran has to attack into the protoss in order to have any chance of winning at all because protoss late game is so much stronger. Right now, terran’s economy is weaker at all points in the game and often has other disadvantages as well like lack of map control, weaker scouting despite having more reason to scout, etc. the list goes on.
  2. The maps are all favored for protoss in tvp. They’re small very small rush distance which favors toss. Very little air space which means medivacs cant use their air mobility which is what justifies more than half their cost and supply. Most bases including the main base are tucked away nice and neat which also makes medivacs suck. All bases are only able to be attacked into after moving through a choke which favors toss in defense always.
  3. Adepts are ridiculous in the beginning of the game. They can chase down reapers, scout for free, harass, escape extremely dangerous situations often pinned down at a high rate, adept allins are always a threat, and there is no downside to neglecting anti air because shield batteries counter banshees wholly and 1 stalker can kill liberators. A single adept can kill 2 scvs and 3 marines often not taking any non shield damage. With the shade, the adept can get across these short rush maps so fast. And this unit can be chrono boosted.
  4. Every protoss build counters everything before terran gets on 3 base. There is not a single build protoss can do that is strategically defeated by what the terran is doing. As terran the single way to win is to take the game past 8 minutes. The protoss is not killable before the terran gets on 3 bases. tvp now plays like tvz but with protoss as the enemy instead. Both tvz and tvp are no-attack-10-minutes pls. For instance, back in HOTS or early LOTV I used to scout the protoss was making mass stalkers while getting very greedy economy and upgrades so I would go for a tank push with marines to punish this and often win. Can’t do that anymore because attacking before 10 minutes has literally been designed out of the game. Now what happens is charge finishes in the time it takes for the terran army to move across the map.

I could go on for much longer but I don’t want to. The matchup is now a macro fest with little tactical or fun play at all. Everything is so restricted and boring. Cant bunker rush, cant scout, cant 1 base all in, cant drop harass, cant doom drop, cant chase a retreating protoss because they ALWAYS have the money for HT with literally every army, cant go for macro play because terran is always behind in macro, cant turtle, cant banshee harass unless you’ve got like 5 banshees with speed, cant helion drop because the bases are so tiny and attack directions are so limited, etc etc.

Protoss advantage is designed into the matchup and I refuse to play this.

1 Like
30

Stop replying to my thread with these nonconstructive posts. Fishing for likes is pathetic.

31

I already knew the game wasn’t fixed when I looked at the two rounds of testing the balance team put through. Neither are putting forward solutions to the real problems of the game. Empty buffs. Candy progress. After I played a few games I thought I should say something because I’ve already waited about a year silent waiting for the game to be fixed without my input.

Stim time decrease changes nothing. A few builds might hit harder and faster but it doesnt matter if terran is still behind in so many respects and the matchup has major design flaws.

Ghost emp radius increase is incredibly marginal and is useful in nothing but the late late late game. Very few tvps go long.

1 Like
32

For the last time. Terran top 25 pros have been higher in skill for a very very long time, and even more so in the top 10 and top 5. Only just now are protoss players catching up, but they still arent quite on par. Protoss pro players have lagged behind terran pro players since IIRC around 2013-14.

And ladder is hilarious:
Cycle through rankedftw(dot)com 1v1 Race Distribution Over Time each region for GM.
Worldwide protoss has been ahead of z and t for over a year now in all four regions.

33

I mean there it is. The matchup is designed to have protoss in the lead. You said it yourself.

Early attacks a terran can do are defended easily by stalkter zealot with usually a single tech unit like a colossus without range.

Man stop pussy footing. Terran IS behind all game. You said it yourself earlier. People think protoss has to be ahead all the time just to be in the game. I mean it writes itself.

This is a relic of how the game used to be played. Terran had to harass and have a stronger economy to stay in the game. Now terran is behind in econ and is often unable to harass at all due to map design and simply being behind in tech and having a worse army.

34

ALIGULAC IS FAKE AS hell, ALigulac can tell you that jump off a cliff and you wont die i bet you will believe it.

1 Like
35

That’s a lie on Pvt being favoured for terrans, just stop making stuff up

1 Like
36

I am sure they have way better knowledge then the game then you have, have you ever done gaming courses? I don’t think so because balance team see leagues not pros or wcs/gsl winners (race).

37

Not quite. They are behind in tech or economy, but thy aren’t losing.

Terran economy is sluggish to start up; MULEs actually slow how fast you hit saturation, but the protoss economy will cap out much sooner because MULEs mine on top of SCVs.

Terran has to take forever to set up infrastructure, tech, and upgrades, but in the long run their army is more cost efficient.

And if you can ever actually assemble your skyterran ball, it is definately superior to the skytoss ball, but it also takes a lot longer to make and can’t fall back on 6 nexi worth of chrono spam.

Protoss wins in the lategame not because their lategame is so amazing, but because the only way protoss wins early is a failed all-in from terran; if it ends before late, it usually ends on the protoss side of the map.

2 Likes
38

I think you may have misunderstood, I meant protoss tallies up advantage after advantage, but if protoss techs just 30 seconds too late the whole game can instantly end, and the better the terran player the tighter that window, until at pro level it comes to the order of 10 seconds late = Dead.

39

Man this is just plain wrong. terran is behind in economy all game. I can take a third before the protoss and still be behind in income, plus all the terran costs to infrastructure on top.

I’ve played and watched plenty of games where toss wins before late game and terran doesn’t do an all in.

40

Both protoss and terran are supposed to add up small victories to win. Terran more so small attack victories and protoss more so tech advantages. But people seem to want the game to go more the way of mindless strategyless macroing into a final attack for a win.

Late tech means a loss for protoss yeah maybe for tech heavy builds but protoss hardly ever plays tech dependent builds anymore because triple nexus with upgrades is so strong. I havent seen a disruptor build in a long time and colossus rushes are also fairly rare. Now its just blind triple nexus mass gate after blind triple nexus mass gate.