Opinion: Spell Casters Need To Be Toned Down

General Discussion
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So I am coming at this as a viewer and less so as a player, but I want to discus spell casters.

For me seeing any spell caster turn the tide of a battle actually sucks. Most of the time I like watching players make smart decisions with the units they have rather than them using a spell caster to win a fight. This isn’t always the case and it isn’t every spell caster but Im going to give my thoughts on each of the spell casters already in the game and if I think there good or if I believe them too be too powerful. Note I don’t want any of these spell casters removed, just toned down so that they feel more like support than a unit that’s going to drastically change a battle.

Terran

Raven:
I actually really like what the Raven does now. Back when it had PDD and Seeker Missile it was far too good at stopping damage and doing mass splash damage. However I think this unit is now in a good spot and I don’t feel like its going to change the tide of battle with one spell. I think the fact that all 3 spells have no over lap help here and the fact that the Raven doesn’t focus on doing mass damage. Anti Armour and IM have really cool plays and uses and auto turrets are a nice harassment tool. Overall I think this unit is in a good place.

Ghost:
This one is weird as I don’t really think of it as a spell caster, and it mainly isn’t its an anti spell caster. EMP is certainly a volatile spell as against protoss it can damage both shields and energy making it very useful. And snipe is a cool idea and works with the theme of the ghosts. This one is hard to say I don’t think it needs any immediate attention but Im sure protoss players get frustrated when ghosts hit with EMP’s

Protoss

Sentry:
Along with the Raven the Sentry is one of my favourite spell casters as its a fairly defensive unit and its spells work well with the protoss army. Guardian shield is a nice defensive buff and hallucination is great for scouting. However Force Field is the best thing about this unit. It can be used defensively and offensively without actually doing damage to the enemy and certain units can knock down the field. I love watching high play with these as it requires skill to land the perfect force fields. Overall another spell caster that I love how it works and enjoy watching be used

High Templar:
Maybe controversial but I hate seeing storm destroy so many units so easily or at least dealing high amounts of damage very quickly. Personally I prefer a spell like feedback because it has a specific use and isn’t a fire and forget damage spell. I don’t think it will happen but I would like to see a nerf to storm. Watching fights that are won by storm are pretty sad and it can allow the protoss to win a fight pretty fast if the other players control is off even slightly. I honestly don’t know how you would change this but its certainly something that I would like to see re worked or removed for another spell.

Oracle:
I like this unit. Im not the biggest fan of it having an attack spell but It makes sense for the roll that it serves. However I do like revelation and stasis ward and I think these spells have a place in the game. I much prefer the support role this unit has over the High Templar as it allows for vision and to trap units out of a fight. If pulsar beam was taken away and replaced I think this would be the perfect support flying unit for the protoss. However removing Pulsar beam would cause problems with harass, as oracle openings are fairly common. Keep the unit the same but would look into changing the beam so the unit becomes all about support.

Zerg

Queen:
In terms of what the unit casts, I think the Queen is pretty great. I do think it has too much range and power for what the unit is meant to be for though. Range 8 in my opinion is too much for an air attack. Zerg players would argue they need this unit to help defend against any air openers but I think reducing the range by 1 wouldnt be too bad. If this was coupled with being able to get hydras a little faster or just make more spores I think that’s a fair balance. Great spell casters but has too much power in its attacks because of the range that the unit has.

Infestor:
I dont know what to say about this unit that hasn’t already been said by everyone else. Even without Infested Terrans I hate watching these units have the impact they can have on a fight. While Shroud might be good I have yet to see anyone use them in Pro matches so I cant comment. I can comment on Fungal and Neural. Fungal needs to be changed to either just do damage or to slow or stun. Most other spells in the game dont do more than one thing and I think Fungal should be changed to that. I dislike this spell a lot and it has too much power in fights. As for Neural, it shuts down Terran Mech too hard and Protoss death balls. I think the spell is required in these fights but I think it needs to be a full commitment for the Infestor if your going to use it. The range should be shorter than it is now. Or the spell should just be changed for something else that’s more defensive in nature. Im still thinking about what that could be but I certainly don’t enjoy watching a match end in seconds when a bunch of infestors take control of the other army and win.

Viper:
Another unit that swings fights too hard in my opinion. Abduct is just too good for shutting down Terran Mech plays, Protoss Colossus play as well as either race going for Air. In conjunction with Infestors and neural this is just horrible to watch. While its important to keep the spell in to break dead locks, the range of the spell should be reduced or there needs to be a time in place for when the viper attaches to the unit and then pulls it, like a 2 second cool down for example. This just means the other player has time to target the viper before it takes away the unit. As for blinding cloud and parasitic bomb, these spells are ok but I think blinding cloud lasts too long for how much it again shuts down certain unit comps and Parasitic bomb is frustrating to watch but I don’t think its actually that bad of a spell.

For me im not the biggest fan of spells that can win fights and prefer the spells that can have an effect on the fights but arent going to seem like game enders. I don’t want to see spell casters removed from the game, but I think toning them down would make for more interesting matches are itll come down to unit comps and engagements rather than hoping for a lucky hit with a spell.

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auto-turret super awful spell, using 100/200 unit for harass it’s the same as just bringing him resources. Range cast is 2, how opponent can not see Raven near workers?

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“I like it”, “i hate it”, “in my opinion”, “it’s cool”, “it’s frustrating”…

Really biased analysis, which brings nothing but your opinion. It’s also clear that “Terran units are cool”, “Zerg units, you don’t like them”. Really surprising coming from a Terran players… Who will have guessed ?!

Learn to think objectivly, it’s paintfull to read an analysis driven by “feelings”.

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Zerg is really boring and uninteresting. Why do you think that TvT is almost unanimously considered the best mirror MU and ZvZ is the worst?

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TvT isn’t the best MU xd. ZvZ is always “Oh no i hate ZvZ… Woo fantastic games”, everytimes…

I prefer largely PvP over TvT, much more dynamic that “I mass tanks, i do doom drops, i mass vikings”

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said a man whose comment is based on a feeling of dislike for the terrans, i imagine in what a difficult internal conflict you live …
Objectively: people can express their thoughts as conveniently.

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The casters try to hype it up while I struggle to stay awake.

Doom drops aren’t even common, what are you talking about? The current style that’s predominant at the highest levels of TvT favours vikings over medivacs.

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You’re funny. Really.

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Go ahead. Nerf the queen, infestor, and viper even more. Dont complain about the buffs other zerg units get to compensate.

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TvT is insipidly boring…it’s just siege positioning vs siege positioning. When mech was a thing in TvT there was at least some variance but Raven shuts that down too hard.
ZvZ on the other hand has become much more dynamic thanks to Reynor and Serral…the constant skirmishes all over the map, the variations in builds and timings, and the capacity for comebacks is so much nicer than “whoever mis-sieges their tanks first loses”

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He has a point. Spell casters are suppose to be supportive and not direct damage Units that can hold anything. Ever since they changed the raven it took on of a more supportive role and is not massed. Let’s do this for the other casters. It’s terrible to see 3 Templar’s storm a whole bio army to die in seconds or watch parasitic bomb destroy a whole fleet in seconds. Which end the game. These abilities have MASSSIVE DPS.
Let’s take a look at Terran spellcasters. The ghost: snipe EMP and cloak. Each ability has a specific role and cannot be used on every unit in the game. Snipe - only for bio / EMP - only for mechanical. Cloak aids the ghost in movement to cast those two spells.
Raven - turret - damage unit short range/ interference matrix - mechanic / Psionic /
AAM no damage but increases damage. Very supportive roles. Each of these casters have one damage spell.

When looking at the infestor and viper there abilities can be used on every unit in the game. Specifically abduct, NP and fungal. Create some restrictions and balance so these units are not massed and become spellcraft. For instance Have abduct only working on mechanical/ non massive or NP on massive or abduct only air units and NP ground units. Not saying that’s what it should be but it’s some suggestions.

Having these abilities only work on a specific type of unit reduces its use and prevents the massing of the unit. Similar to ghost’s snipe and ravens IM. My biggest suggestion was to make the viper anti air and the infestor anti ground. Ability restriction and toning down the damage of AOE damage creates better gameplay and strategy.

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It is quite funny that all the terrans ignore the yamato cannon as a spell. Crying about infestor but a spell that basically destroys everything in the game is just fine :smiley:

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sure, and after you’re done nerfing zerg spellcasters, don’t complain about the ensuing buffs that take place to ensure zerg can stay competitive.

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it’s not thoughts, it’s feelings/emotions, these have no value in a rationnal discussion.

We all expect him to prefer Terran units, than Zerg units, because it is the race he plays ! And if he doesn’t give more than that, you can just ignore this opinion, because it is biased, and has no value to find the truth.

Imagine you want to construct a bridge, and find the right architect, so you interview multiple people to find the guy you want to hire, and which project you choose.
What you find the more convincing :

  • “This bridge is so nice, cool, i really like the material i’ve used, so full of colors, designed by a well known artist. In my opinion it’s the best bridge on the market, because the other are so austere and conventionnal. Well it’s quite existing to see the simulation, look at the beautiful lanscape over the bridge. I’m sure the bridge will be really solid, because i really trust the engineer that did the calculus, he is like a brother for me, ok well, you got me, it’s my step-brother. So i assure you, he is a genius, you can trust him. So, you definitely should hire me to construct this bridge”.

  • “I decided to use these materials according to your specifications, as it respects the sismic constraint of this area. This is proof tested as this is the same used on that bridge built in japan which has resisted to a sismic wave of magnitude 5.3, which is much higher than any event ever registered in the are in which you want to build the bridge. I decided to choice this height and this width to allow this intensity of fluvial and road traffic. I’ve taken account that the bridge will increase the attractivity of the city, so the bridge will be ready to support more traffic without traffic jam. It will cost this price, sure it’s more expensive that the other at first but it will cost less formaintenance, so after 5 years it will be less expansive for you than this other bridge”.

The second indeed. Why ? Because he explained his choices, brought objective arguments, and you could judge his reasonning.
Maybe he is wrong and the first one is better, but you can discover it. While the other one, he asked you to close your eyes, fully trust him, while he has an interest to tell you that his bridge is better.

It’s the same here, OP is the first guy.

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You really trying to argue that Terran casters are even on the same level as Zerg ones? The Raven was. It was too good. Then they smash the Raven and Zerg stay the same and Zergs on the forums act like it was “skill” that led to 5/8 in WCS.

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difference is, zerg has always been balanced around interacting with their spellcasters to shore up the weaknesses of how cost ineffective the majority of their army is. terran on the other hand, has an incredibly cost effective army already.

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Raven is good in TvP. Ofc as interference matrix doesn’t work vs Z, it’s not as strong (i wonder why it doesn’t work, as it won’t be OP).
Still raven opener while not really popular is rather good, it allows you to kill creep for no scan with hellion (prepare for midgame, and more energy for eco so more army), and you have free turetts harass.

If i were Terran i’d do hellions/raven opener to slow creep, turett harass, keep raven alive and make a 2/2 bio/marine tanks where i can use seeker missile, so the fight will be like 2/2 vs 2/0, and we all know how important it is to research armor upgrade vs Terran. And it will really hard for zerg to survive with poor creep spread, a 2/2 timing where 2 levels of armor upgrade will be useless.

And ghost, it’s just the best caster of the game. 2 EMP turn every Z/P caster into useless.
vs P, EMP dealts -100 dmg on the shield in an AOE, it’s enormous…
Vs Z, ghosts just take down every units… The only counter is banelings hits on a clumped ball of ghosts… You only need to spread them, and as ghosts are psionic, banelings are not really cost effective vs ghost.
They’re cloacked, they have a good dps vs light while the majority of casters doesn’t have an attack.

And nukes are fantastics vs Protoss statics.

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Come on dude, it’s in the first line. He’s not giving hard balance suggestions. Spellcasters are something that he wants to talk about and what that’s like from viewers perspective.

On the surface, yes it looks like zerg spell and protoss spell casters are getting talked about and how strong they are in this post, because it’s true. Zerg and protoss spellcasters are a lot stronger than Terran spellcasters and are more useful and it’s like this by design. Yes, that makes the spellcasters a lot stronger and more annoying to play against, but without the spellcasters the zerg and protoss army has a much weaker backbone than terran armies, especially now with all the nerfs with the new patch.

This does not mean he isn’t right. Vipers do seem like a crazy strong unit by being able to pull every unit in the game towards them, dealing 120 air splash damage, and being able to reduce the range of ground units to 1. The viper seems to cover every single base, ground, air, anti massive, in a single unit that can regen energy quickly. Sounds pretty strong right? Except, it’s not as strong as it sounds on paper. Sure, I think some small tweaks to the viper would be nice, but they’re not needed by any means.

So basically, the entire point I’m trying to make here is not to attack the OP so quickly and assume bias. He isn’t wrong by any means when it comes to how the game seems from a viewer’s perspective, and he’s allowed to have opinions and share those opinions. Instead of trying to point immediately to bias, look at the post through a non-biased lense and try to understand the logic behind what the OP is saying. Watching a game and seeing a giant protoss ship gets pulled in towards an army of waiting corruptors isn’t particularly interesting to see, especially since it’s a move that’s quite easy to pull off.

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“I need to be overpowered.”

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It should be illegal to be stupid enough to say things like:

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