Open Discussion - Prove Protoss is OP

Parting: “Protoss is favored at every stage of the game”
PPP: “Nah, Protoss is fine. Everyone who doesn’t agree is a Terran whiner.”

4 Likes

Flagging you for trolling once again. You and BatZ are not worth another second of my time. This is proof once again that neither one of you have any idea of what you are talking about. No proof or proper in-depth analysis whatsoever. At this point, it looks like most of the main trolls have come by and proven that there is no substance behind all the crying. I’m hoping someone with a brain comes around so I can have a REAL and OBJECTIVE discussion on balance. I can afford you one more chance if you do come up with something reasonable, but until then, you’re better off sitting down. Forever.

1 Like

Just wait until you post a comment that triggers them so hard the mods delete it, restore it because it didn’t break any rules, then delete it again because it was buried in a hoard of reports and issue a ban (having two posts removed in a short time span = ban), then remove the ban because it wasn’t fair to ban you but they didn’t want to leave it up because it triggered so many reports to be spammed on it.

I will be using Blizzard’s own MMR algorithm to compute MMR values for players on a per-matchup basis. Wouldn’t it be nice to know the MMR ranking of players in TvP and ZvP? I suspect some protoss forum trolls are going to explode.

Like covering your ears and cowering in a corner from facts.

We added replay stats to the myriad of statistical evidence you ignore. Again, little girl, just tell us WHAT stats ARE acceptable.

2 Likes

But thats so random. There is no logical reason to make that claim. You can’t just say every single stats pointing toward protoss being too strong is cherry picked or not valid. At some point, you need to accept something. You wont get a Harvard level of statistical analysis on balance about of video game. The data source we have is limited. From the limited proof we have, it does seem like protoss is overperforming, especially in master/gm.

Also, i have to disagree that master/gm games dont matter. Those players make up for the top 1% of the player base. If protoss is broken for everyone besides the 0.01% of the playerbase, then its fair to say protoss design/balance is unhealthy and bad for the game.
The fact is if you are with masters/gm in protoss, you have a quite significant advantage and probably dont deserve your MMR because protoss does have easiers tools.

Now, for the pro scene i guess the balance is a bit more debatable but even there, it does seem like protoss has an edge. Althought nothing is proven from a statistical standpoint at that level (possibly because the data we have is so limited), protoss tends to have slightly better tournament results.

2 Likes

https://i.imgur.com/mVoNguV.png

There you go. Each dot is a player. Each player is scored by how rare their performance level is in each matchup (y axis) vs how rare their skill level is in their mirror matchup (x axis). Mirror matchups predict other matchups with a very high R2 value as seen on the chart. The R2 value is above 0.9 for all matchups, meaning 90% of the other matchup performance can be predicted with mirror matchup performance. This allows us to measure a player’s skill level relative to his peers with no balance, and to compare their performance in other matchups (that are affected by balance). The two blue dots on the far right are particularly interesting:

https://i.imgur.com/WzBDMf8.png

Nobody comes even close to Maru/Cures performance level. ZvT at a very, very high level favors Zerg and PvT at a very high level favors Protoss. PvT favors Protoss much more than ZvT favors Zerg. At about 1.5 standard deviations from the mean, the trends flip. At that point Terrans do very slightly better in TvP and TvZ. The most lopsided matchup is ZvT favoring terran for >99% of pro players. You can see it better in this chart, which zooms in on the average pro player:

https://i.imgur.com/DbH1fyD.png

Also notice the wild variability in performance as measured by how spread out and randomized the dots are. Anyone who thinks they can understand balance by looking at 1 of these dots is a certifiable retard. You absolutely cannot judge balance trends by looking at a couple of tournament finals.

It’s also important to point out that this is a static snapshot. These systems evolve in real-time. For example, if ZvT favors terran at a high level, then high-level terrans will have their rank deflated. They will, probabalistically, face against weaker opponents, beat those opponents, thus transferring the “lost” MMR to those players. So the MMR fluctuates in waves / pulsates much like a car tapping his brakes causing a chain reaction on the highway.

Playa hasnt made a whine thread in months. Case closed.

2 Likes

He shouldnt be able to convince you even if it would be truth for sure, dont forget that flat earthers exist

You provided no facts beyond Aligulac, and that was in another thread. I’ve heard you loud and clear and given you plenty of time to recover from the blows your sorry little ego took. It is 100% fact with evidence scattered across the forums that you are only trolling. Sorry, but this thread is not for you. I’m only calling on rational T/Z players to make claims. You’re done here.

Read above - I’ve already said it. As a side note, unlike you, I always respond to everything clearly. You people are the one with selective listening. If you aren’t interested in the full discussion, don’t make any claims you can’t back up.

It’s not random at all - quote from the website: “This page allows you to filter down stats based on a large portion of replays uploaded to SC2replaystats.” This is why I can’t accept this data. It’s clear that there is no random sampling from the population. People willingly put their replays into the website. And like I said for the second part, I can only make guesses as to why the numbers are the way they are.

For me personally, I don’t say every single stat is cherry picked or invalid. So far I’ve seen Aligulac and rankedftw - they seem to be reasonable, though rankedftw might be broken. If you have large scale tournament statistics, I will keep an eye out for those too.

I accept there is a slight favoring in Protoss due to shield battery overcharge and void ray buffs (they need to scale back the speed one pre-upgrade IMO).

We clearly have an MIT professor in our midst LOL

Yes, that’s why I’ve said the things I say:

It is FACT that BatZ pulled up a random html file screenshot. If he knew any idea what he was talking about, he would have known that I already answered his question. I have an idea on how to collect the raw data (answered above), and I know how to analyze data. BatZ quote below:

This is why I don’t believe he is an MIT professor. He lacks basic knowledge in computer science. He can’t back up his shortcomings in statistics. He has repeatedly shown he has no idea what math is beyond 1+1. He can only save face a tiny bit if he tells me how he got all those fake html files.

Balance objectively takes place at the top level. My only issue with picking GM ladder is that half the people you pick are in low M1, and there is a clear discrepancy in skill between someone at 5k MMR and 6k MMR. Game design is another issue - I’d like to only look at balance. I think BatZ has 5.8k MMR? I am around 4.8k. If I faced off BatZ in a game of PvZ bo7 and lost every single game, is it in my right to say the game is imbalanced and in favor of Zerg? You tell me.

The part where you say Protoss tends to have a slightly better tournament result. THAT is what I am looking for. I want to see it - in the most objective way possible preferably. I have seen too many contradictions around the forums. That’s why I want to discern with my own eyes what is going on. Unfortunately, the only thing I know is that there is liquipedia results scattered around everywhere, and I don’t want to take too much time in my life searching for all that data (and possibly missing some more). I’m hoping there is a place where it’s more consolidated and I just happened to miss it.

I can assure you that I am nothing like a flat earther. On the other hand, he has proven to be on their level. I don’t take my information from YouTube videos and questionable google searches. He has proven multiple times in the past that he gets his information from YouTube just like a flat earther.

2 Likes

Yeah, you are most likely just playing devils advocate, i hope you are having fun.

I just want to stop the madness once and for all. If anyone makes a whine thread in the future, someone else can always cite this thread. I’m tired of seeing the same trolls whine about the same nonsense.

1 Like

Nah, you dont want that, you just wanna ddefend something, no matter how dumb is this. I can do tge same, prove to me that 1+1=2

1 Like

Ladder distributions? Major Tournaments? Minor Tournaments?

Wow, here we go again, eh tough guy? You want to “batter my ego?” Lol. You have an open invitation, princess.

yep, i agree with that. Thats all im saying. I dont think protoss is so broken its impossible to win against an equally skilled player. They have a slight advantage but its not insurmountable.

If both terran and zerg players accuse only protoss, and not also the respective 3rd race, means you’ve one proof.

I can give you my opinion as old gold/plat player and actually returned (bronze/silver).

For lower elo will not be possible balance in any way the OP protoss. Terran and zerg require more management/micro (if you are in that elo you don’t have that skill, so no way to win against protoss) than some tools that protoss have, so those elos will remain in this way also if you make terran/zerg OP.

I’ve about 100 apm, and play with average terran and zerg with same apm. My protoss opponents have 50-70, not more (always). But i’m not a statistically laboratory.
I left the game 10years ago with forum full of players saying nerf the toss, and today still issue.

Maybe they will balance the top 10% percentile of players making op terran or other with next patches, but lower elo will suffer toss, is sc2 design.

the problem with tournaments is that its hard to know which to count in or not. Everyone has different opinions about weather to include them or not.

Sounds fairly reasonable to me

Protoss has historically been the bullied race for many years. Terran players always hate Protoss players. Zerg players only recently started hating Protoss players more beyond cannon rush cheeses because of void rays and the fact that they can no longer pick up free wins against Protoss.

IMO if you’re not at least low master or even diamond 1, you are lacking some serious fundamental understanding in the game. I can’t carry a discussion with someone that is literally at the lowest rank of the ladder.

It’s definitely a tough problem for sure. People tend to see what they want to see, and it results from cherry picking on both sides. I’m willing to hear if anyone has an objective approach to looking at tournament data though.

1 Like

Ok, then don’t post in a public forum.

I bought the game (now is free ok) and in my elo you have the right to play a balanced game as well as high elo. I gave you my opinion, I gave you something you probably don’t have cause you seem of a higher elo.

But you’ve been rude.

You don’t want discuss, you want to repeat yourself: i’m not winning cause I’m protoss. But is something you don’t have share with us, we did not say this, is something you’re accusing yourself alone.

1 Like

I wasn’t particularly trying to be rude. If you are at a very low rank, it is clear that you are not climbing due to a skill and knowledge difference. As an exaggerated theoretical example, I could probably beat you in a 1v1 if my units were set to 75% hp. Maybe even 50%. You can brush up purely on theory and hit diamond with low APM on all 3 races. My point is, you don’t have an understanding of the game, so it’s not in anyone’s favor if you have an opinion on the state of balance in this game. It would be like me going to Overwatch and complaining that Dva is OP, yet I’ve only played the game for a week during a time when it was free in the past. Or if I went to WC3 and said the undead race is the most broken despite only playing WC3 arcade 95% of the time.

3 Likes

I’ve never spoken about a “no climbing” issue.

then do not write in a public forum (2nd time). About 50% of playerbase is in my elo (bronze-gold), I think the quality of our games should matter, but don’t write here if you need a nieche private discussion.