Its almost useless EXCEPT for killing Turtle Terran. One of the things I hate most is when the Terran already basically lost the game but you cant kill him because he just keeps building planetaries with mass turrets and sensor towers. Siege tanks, maybe some BCs, Thors, all kinds of bull ****. So my response is to build Disruptors and Tempests. With the upgrade Tempest DPS is actually not a joke against buildings anymore and you can quickly clear out turrets and even get good DPS on the PF. Still need disruptors, especially if he gets a bunch of Thors. Also Speed VR are good if you see him going BCs. If he tries to teleport into your base you can quickly respond with VR and a warp in of blink Stalkers and wreck his BCs. If he is crazy enough to warp on top of your Tempests, 4+ VR with prismatic is a great deterrent.
This upgrade is the final nail in the coffin for Zerg late game. It was already pretty hopeless but tempests being able to snipe spores like they’re nothing makes it COMPLETE GARBAGE.
Waaaahhhhh cant build mass moveable “static” defense anymore. Waaahhhhh
Not being able to build the one structure that made late game even somewhat viable is a big deal. It’s funny how unaware you are of this.
The only level of play that matters is pro play and Skytoss and spore forests havent been meta for awhile.
And more importantly, the game shouldnt be balanced around spore forests. Not that there is currently a problem.
Yes, it is. It’s literally the only way a Zerg can compete against Protoss in the late game.
The reason you don’t see it anymore is because Zerg’s late game is completely nonviable.
Z has spore forests, P has batteries plus cannons, by ‘‘removing’’ the spore forest you are giving P an advantage, and I’m not sure if pvz lategame was Z sided or P sided, it was unusual, but those lategame fights were usually pretty close. Now with new voids I have seen some skytoss games and it looked P sided without even reaching to the spore phase.
Spore forests were never a problem to begin with.
Late game PvZ was balanced, the main issue is that Zerg would always have a huge economic advantage in the earlier phases of the game carrying to late game. It is too hard for Toss to deny greedy from Zerg.
It’s been completely Protoss favoured for months. No Zerg is ever planning on going late game, it’s all midgame aggression. And Protoss can actually fight favourably without batteries but Zerg has no hope without spores.
Actually watching a lot of pro games , protoss needed that to help clearing spore and spine forests, still the viper abducts is the counter but now zerg player will have to react quicker as he loses spores faster
I’m not a mech player, but I feel like mech TvP is already scarce and this makes it even harder to do effectively.
Edit: I also have to say I am NOT looking forward to facing that stupid proxy void/tempest rush either. That rubbish was already hard enough to hold, and the tempest and void changes only make it harder.
No I get your point. Zerg vs Protoss ultra late game which usually happens on a big map like Eternal Empire is cancer. Mass sky toss flying over mass battery is super stupid. And Zerg on the other side with mass spore forest is also stupid.
With mass battery, it defnitely gets super hard to deal with for Zerg. Definitely agree. And just as important, it is an awful, long, boring, borderline pointless game.
PvZ is in a real **** spot right now. And has been in a crap spot for at least a year or more. IMO.
As someone who goes skytoss every game… when can Toss afford to mass shield batteries? Shield batteries suck in such instances vs Zerg. I mean, they can’t move… you can’t afford to make shield batteries everywhere and even if Zerg attacks into them… it’s freaking Zerg man. The race of mobile shield batteries (queens), plus they have vipers, which is better than anything Toss.
Such a weird way to go about trying to get something nerfed, presumably. Then again, I never watch this game… so maybe this is a thing now outside of your hypothetical mind?
Imagine though how imbalanced shield batteries would be if they could move and also attack. Now you know simply a PART of why Toss has always been horrible vs Zerg at the highest level.
I saw Snake made a good post on TL. net yesterday or so about what P vs Z ultimately boils down to: vipers (he even says they’re too OP). True post, in all regards.
It doesnt happen that often IMO, but it does happen. A huge easily split map like Eternal Empire is one of the few places where it might go down like this. But you are right, its not really a thing until the ultra late game.
Now to go full Traction and say “OMFG Zerg doesnt have late game in PvZ anymore!!!” is wrong too. Zerg do just fine in late game at the pro level because even if Toss can put up a fight or even be favored on even terms entering the late game… it rarely happens in pro games that Toss gets to late game against Zerg on even footing.
I think there’s two levels of P vs Z that have helped keep it Zerg favored where “it matters.” Listen, I can beat every Zerg pretty easy below a certain level. Heck, I even beat “GSL noregret” every game, even when coming back from 6+ months of no games… I can’t beat anyone who knows how to play the game, though, unless they’re just impatient/disrespectful.
If you’re playing against Zergs who try to win without vipers and basically try to take shortcuts to winning, which rely on Toss making blunders, more or less, then… sky toss is going to look broken and they will whine on forums, which will help disguise the reality of pro gaming: any Pro gamer worth the title “pro,” flat out can’t lose to sky toss if they made any attempt, whatsoever, to match Toss in tech.
Pro Toss players flat out refused to play long/macro games for a reason. Showtime wants nothing more than to macro, yet he has constantly lamented having to avoid it because his job is to win and he’s not stupid…
Will a void ray buff change that? I’m trying to determine that, myself… But, again… that comes down to will it allow you to hit timings before vipers that you otherwise couldn’t before. Or… be able to better deal with viper timings.
Spores are so good vs that style, though, and the tempest has always been a lose/lose unit. You make this expensive unit that takes up a lot of supply that… serves 1 purpose, at the height of optimism. In all of prior history, it has never mattered if the tempest killed anything, because everything else in the game made the tempest a liability.
Eg., the best unit to make against the old HotS tempest were broodlords. You just baited the guy into making tempests and now his army had to move at a snails pace, in lockstep with the tempests, to protect them… and… anything you would switch to would own him. And, if you attacked with queens… you weren’t going to lose broodlords, anyways. Completely useless unit, for all the duration that I’ve played.
Nope. Neeb goes late game all the time, Astrea did it against Dark and had it in the bag before throwing, and DNS did it a bunch of times and won. It’s Zerg players who refuse to play late game.
Snakes ideas are completely resident. He wants to buff ultras and broods for nerfed Vipers I thought we already had that experience with 8 armour ultras? zzzzz instead of a spellcaster war let’s just 1a at each other. No thanks.
Its beyond me how hard ppl can twist the reality. As soon as blizzard began to say that protoss Pros dont want to Play lategame all these zerg whiners crawled up and say its actually the other way round. Same with eco. Apparently zerg Needs to do eco dmg and all protoss Pros do is sitting in the Base teching up for lategame freewin
Tbh if we end up removing spore forest play and lategame gets changed so that Zerg has other ways of fighting mass skytoss, that may be best.
Wall of spores + viper pulls is really meh as a playstyle, we can do without it so long as blizz doesn’t wait too long to fix things up.
Hell, it could even be a reason to try make something like microbial shroud actually good.
wow a zerg players complaing about not being able to mass build mobile static defence and such to deal with something that was sopos to be a siege weapon anyways Lolz. Yeah just never build units and keep complaining please.