Okay here are some A+ or maybe Code S replays of TvZ in BW

Here’s the link,replay
k3trb on bwreplays. “Gosu Terrran vs Zer”

k3trb

her’es anothe one:

xaztc “gosu wraith vs zerg”

77gvd “gosu wraith vs zerg”

third is same name as second, so be careful and rename it when you downlaod it, so you don’t get confused.

not bad, one is a 7 minute wraith build win, and other is a 10 minute wraith opener win. That’s about as fast as possible to eliminate a zerg player in a realistic game NOT invoving 2 rax marine rushes anyway.

Thi sis what happens when the Zerg makes the slightest mistake nad doesn’t get a good scout, a A+ Terran is like, “Okay, I can literally curb stomp you with anybuild order I want now.”

But hopefully, for TerranicII, hopefully I’ll get some more of his replays and show, this is why Z can’t 2 base ling timing vs Terran, because that won’t beat firebats if the T scouts it and swap to firebats, and eithe rway, you won’t be ready for something as rigged as A+ or Code S Wraiths or just about anything else the T want s to do tat that point…

So I have a few more replasy too, but if you watch the timing of what the Teran has in a real game, the Zerg has no way to move out of his base in early or evne middle game. The Terran would just shred whatever army he makes.

Okay yeah, game 1 is what happens if you don’t make 3 sunks immediately, the Gosu Terran amoves you while taking a bio break in the toilet.

And believe it or not, I’ve actually won games against that Terran a few years ago, and Iused to actually win that game as the Zerg. One of his alternate accounts is “DontTestMeSon”.

But yeah, he played 300apm in one of the wraith games, nad I was watching his woreker splits,a nd he sometimes manually correct sthe walking path of his SCVS while they are harvest ing minerals, and he never misses an idel SCV for more than ahlf a second except one time in the replay.

His macor mechanics are so perfect that he knows excetly when to cut SCV production to bank minerals for the two starports, and he knows exactly, from the first second, what his worker count is on each supply depot, each barracks, each factory, and each starport, and he does the exact same build with a photographic memrory every tim he decides to use that buikld, unless he scouts something that makes him modify the build, and he knows with a photographic memory exactly what to do in that case and exactly what worker does what in that case too.

Compared that to myself, I can’t remember build orders beyond about 20 workrers, I just play “by feel” the entire game until I’m pretty usre I’m at max worker coutn, sya 96 as zerg on 5 bases, iImean, hell if I know hwat my drone count is when I started my lair or hdyralisk den or queen nest, because I’ve never been able to remember stuf like that. I just beat people on positon and compositon of units.

But some players have such a good memory, they know exactly what the idela worker count is for amost literally every situation that can happen in the game, and they can execute it methodically and habitually without error.

Perfect 4 worker split.

Wait no, that SCV is going to walk wrong, so he manually corrected the pathing A.I. and gained another 8 minerals by doing that. If he doest something like that every few seconds during the opening, he can gain an entire extra 50 or 100 mienrals by doing that every few seconds.

This is HTOMario level Terran macro, he literally knows exactly what to do in every situation, “Okay, he’s attacking, so I should cut worker production for now…a minute or two later, cleans it up, okay it’s safe to resume worker production.”

“Or I’m cutting worker production to bank faster for 2 STarprots, because it makes the fastest possible 2 wraiths rush about 10 seconds faster, and that means I get two extra drone kiills when I reach the Zerg’s base for free.”

That’s GM SC2 level macro mechanics. And you’ll notice he resumes worker production after he starts both starports, and that was intentional worker cutting.

So like, I’ve seen Diamond Terrans in SC2 flesh out a build order out to 40-something workers, he knows exactly what to do no matter what happens, all the way up to the 40-something worker timing, and has a “preferred build” that he hopes he gets to use, but has like an alternate build at every 5 woker coutns or whatever, and if something doesn’t go the way he hoped, he uses another build he has memorized.

Okay, on overlord scouting Terran. Losign your first overlord isn’t necessarily detrimental.

However, you don’t want to lose it too early. In that one replay, the Zerg lost his overlord about 2 seconds too early to see that the Terran was going fast wraiths, and tha t menat that by th etime he realized what the build was, he was already losign drones.

In order to survive this, from a Terran this good or better anyway, you need to not lose the first overlord until AFTER you see the Starports.

Like in 1vs1 and 2vs2 as Zerg, I literally NEVER lose an Overlord to Marines…period, nor do I ever lose an overlord to dragoons or hdyralisks or cannons or turrets or any other ground unit, and I never suicide my own Overlord, because I can usually read the buld “blind” nyway based on ling scout and stuff, but then again, I haven’t played Zerg vs a modern Terran, because some of the Terran players are flat out better than they were in 2001 or even 2006.

So against DontDoThat, I’d probably need to suicide an overlord to avoid getting surprised by one of his tech builds, but I have beaten “Code S skill level” wraiths as Zerg before, but it’s not easy, you pretty much cannot afford any mistakes, aor you’ll lose way too many drones, and then lol, the terran ends up with more bases than the Zerg if you lose enough drones.

and this is hard, because you do need spore colnies for detecton in case he researches the cloak, but you’d rather beat the wraiths by getting up a critical mass of hydraliskss, because eery time you morph a drone to a spore colony, tat’s delaying yoru income perpetatually.

This is an aspect of ZbT which I explained way back druing WoL pre-alapha, ath Zerg is not easy in Broodwar. You make a 3 drone over train or under-train, and sometimes that means you automatically lose.

So the Zerg WANTS to have 2 workers per mineal field, but people in hell want ice water too. So in a real Game against a Terran this good, you get stuck on 1.5 workers per mineral field, or sometimes you evne get stuck on 1 worker per mineral field.

nothing against these zergs, because TadSryker or Gretorp vs Play or G5 went the same way, they have 8 or 9 drones mineing per base fo rmost of the early and middle game,a nd theysurvive to 5 base vs 4 base timing…because Playa pressure dthe hell out of them, and so did I when they played Zerg, and they are forcd to crank combat units, which means they never get to drone, whihch prevents the Zerg from getting macor hatcheries to get the broken “10 to 12 hatch I win” ending.

So in realistic games against the best Terrans, the Zerg doesnt’ get 2 workers per mineral field unless he has some sort of success turning the tables on the Terran, um such as Queens 1-shoting tanks or something like that, then the Zerg turns the tables on the Terran, and some pressure is off, and the Zerg can drone again for a few minutes, but excluding something like that, or maybe the Zerg got LUCKY with the mtuaisk transition and somehow caught two tanks in the middle of the map, too far from the marines, and pickd off both tanks (unlikeldy, by theretically happesn once in a hwile).

So then that buys the Zerg enough time to drone some more, basically whatever the Terran dos, you need to hard counter it while spending as few larva as possible, otherwise you’ll be perpetually locked on 1 drone per minerals field.

1 drone per mineral field means the Zerg is in bad shape, and probably about to lose.

1.5 drone per mineral field means the Zerg is about even with the Terran.

2 Drones per mineral field means the Zerg has won several negagementts and got ot “drone up” several times, and now the Zerg takes a 4th ad 5th base and goes to 10 to 12 hatch macro.

Bu ttheis timing between the first base and late 2 base or early 3 base is a very hard time for Zerg to deal with vs Terran, because every little mistake wrecks your drone count.

And you’ll notice these wre 150apm zergs, and none of them survived past “early 2 base” barely finished the hatchery before they got rolled.

There are basically “emeregent properties” of balance which are not explained by data files alone, that’s what “emergence” means.

And so Zerg has what I call “time reversed macro” in some situations, and there’s a fine balance between what makes the zerg too weak nad what makes the zerg too strong.

there are situations where one minute, the Zerg is at an extreme disadvantage, but the T or P doesnt’ se ethat and hit the Zerg then and there and punish the Zerg, then literally one minute later the Zerg has a hage ADVANTAGE and then the Terran or Prootss is like, “How is that possible, I wrecked his economy, nd I killed that hwole wave of lings, nad he’s still alive”…

Well, it’s an emergent proeerty of the hatchery and drone mechanics.

Like for example, when you ling scout and overlord scout and see a protoss is going zealot all-in, then you make the correct amount of sunkens and then so yo upretty much wrecked you r own economy to defend an all-in, right?

Well herees the thing, the protoss doesnt’ know exactly hat your units are and exactly what you drone count is, and hopefully you defend this attack with as few sunks as mortally possible, which is why expert Zergs don’t finish morphing their sunks or spores utntil EXACTLY when they are needed, so in this way you can “time reverse” the next hatchery, if you’ll pardon this language, so ti come sout earlier tan if you just made all your usnks fully blown sunks right away, but if you ar eplanint a third hatchery, before a late Zelalot all-in comes, then you have like 3 half made sunks behind the hatchery, sonow the zealots cnanot get in there to kill the sunkis, and now you are safe until mass dragoons, evne though you killed your own drone count, now you don’ tcare, because now it’s safe to “drone up” for about the next 2 minutes.

Step 1) So You had a disadvantage in timing iand economy.
2) the solution is to actually wreck you rown economy some more,

2b) make some colonies, but don’t morph then to sunkesn until exactly when they need to be sunkesn

  1. se the excess minerals to start the 3rd hatch in your natural sooner than otherwise possible, and not a third base. In BW you need macro hatches before you exdspand, otherwise yo udon’t have enough larva ot make an army to dfend the expand anyway.

So yo use what the Zerg did ot the Protoss is turn the Protoss “rpobe power” against itself. Zealto rush is all about protoss probe power cranking out a huage minerals advantage.

Well the Zerg abuses “reverse time mechanics” and some psoitining, and suddenly the protoss “probe power” advantage up to that point of the entire game has suddenly been negated, beause he dumped all those minerals on zealots, and he cn’t get into the sunkesn to attack them, becaue they are pnned between two hatches and can’t be surreound.

So now the Zerg turned the tables against the protoss, and the Zerg drones up to 2 wokerrs per field on main and natural, and safely takes a 3rd…

If the Protoss does something else, the Zerg can’t just do the same exactly thing, you gotta shout, I mena he might go 1 gateway directly to stargate and try to corsair harass you to death, and you gotta socut that and be ready to keep your overlords alive, which is pretty much the so-called “bisu build” but people were doing that buld before bisu even started playing the game.

Anyway, if yo uscout the Protoss is going with a corsiair opener, you cut drones nd make one spore colony per base and crnak hydralisk until you have “critical mass” of hydras (and they don’t suck vs goons or zealots, so in this cae if you triain 1 or 2 more than you theoretically need, that’s not going ot hurt you too much, so err on the side of makign mor erather than less. And now you turned another protoss advantage into a disadvantage, because now if the protoss tries to go back to Zealots, Hydralisk do ful damge vs shields, evne on small units, and hyralisk with ilings beats zealots and goons, nad especially by the time you get lurkers nad so the Protoss ended up kiling his own timing advantage on the gorund by skpping gorund and going for a cheese corsair harass, and now yo ucan go Hydra Hamer the protoss and lurker contain the protoss, nad his high tempar are late, becaue hie’s split his tech all over the pace, or he’s trying ot go reavers from the actual Bisu build, which I never had trouble splitting hdyralisk vs reaver scarabs enough to cost effectively kill reavers with hdyralisk so I didn’t mind if my protoss opponent got a reaver aor two, I just split my hydras and kille dthem witohotu losing much.

So now you just turned the reavers agains th the protoss, and he got no high templar for storms vs lurkers, and you lurker contain the protoss, whereas if the protoss opens tanadard he endsup HT containing the Zerg until the Zerg either gets queen with broodling, or enough hydrals or muts to suicide mission kill the teplars, so the Zerg masy as well get queens, free kills vs bad trade, I think I’ll take th efree kills.

Understand the fiference?

With on eopening, the Zerg getst to luker contain the protsoss, with the other opening the protoss contains the Zerg.

Ether way, the Zeg should make QUEENS and broodlin gthe prootss high templars, which keeps the rest of your amry alive longer, allows you to “drone up even more” and take a 4th and 5 base and 10 to 12 hatches, etc and 3/3 ups on both ground and air and 6 queen 6 defiler, no w curb stompe the protoss.

Anwya, corsair is Bisu’s opening, but it’s nto even a good opening, the Zerg gets to lurker contain the protoss, which its dumb for the protoss to intentionally build himself into getting lurker contained.

and again, while im on the topic of queens, what part of “IT ONE SHOT’S HIGH TEMPARRS” idn’t koerena pro gamers understand?

high tempars massacre hydrelaiks, evne if you mircro reasonably well the hdyras still take about 50% damage from storm,. So if you one-shot kill high templar with a quene, you preent however many storms he ahd enough energy to use, so, you keep your entire army alive longer, and you get to drone up agaagain, and pretty soon you’ll be ~90 to 100 drone zerg with 3/3 everything.

I’ve ried to exlain these mechanics to people over the years, and still cant’ convince Zerg players that Queens are worth training, even though I could literally e ten times beter player than them when I wa shealthy.

It KILLS anyting exept archons and reavers in one hit. If you are not training that unit, you’re a MORON.

end of queen rant.

So while um, this “revere time” economy mechanic is easier to explain in Z vs P than ZvT, so that’ swhy I changed to discussin ZvP “reverse time macro” mechanics and how you can totally reverse the balance of the game within one minute flat, without even “fighting” anything, literally you were behind in macor, the protoss massed zealot all-in, and you correctly got 3 sunks and put the macro hatch in fton, so can’t attakc sunks, now “drone up” and take a third a ssoon as you can protect it with enough lings and hyras.

Sme dal vs corsair opener, he can’t attack ground with those, so you take a FREE expand, and hdyralisk and chase the corsair saway. and if you know what you’re doing you won’t lose very many overlords, like losing one overlord aint going to kill you, bu tjust dont’ lose 3 or 4 or whatever.

And map dimensions and whther or not there are “overlord cliffs” and stuff like that has critical impact on racial balance.

Like if it’s Blood bath, well you might thnk Zerg can just 4th pool and get a win in 1s1, but you’d be wrong. Terran can stop 4th pool with 1 marine and a bunker and not loses a unit. protoss can stop 4th pool with 1 cannon, placed between a forge, nexus, and pylon with pull a few rpobes andhold position in the crcks, so the ligns ant get at the cannon, and pretty much the protoss stops 4hth pool without losing a probe, and then the Zerg just wrecked his own economy for no good reason.

So then obviousl the Zerg can’t ling rush the T or P.

So that leaves the Zerg going 9th pool, i ncase the T or P is cheesing, followed immediately by whatever it is, fastest possible second hatch after a 9th pool. Well, the Zerg is still playing from behind, because you have very little defender’s advantage nand to be honest with you, the Prtotoss or Terran could start attacking you with their first few units before your second hatchery even morphs in, and you can’t put the second hatchery as far away as the mineral-only expansions on blood bath, they need to be close enough to main to be protedted by yoru first 2sunks, otherwise the T or P just runs in yoru base and kills the hatchery and runs away again.

obviously if you do not get a second hatchery immeditately, you may as well type “GG” and leave. But you need at least 2 sunkens, bult behind your spawing pool and hatches, to stop zealots from just rollign over you, or stop zaealtos from killyin gyour geyser every time you try to mine gas.

And by the way, the protoss can start a forge, and then worker scout immediately, “oh wait, the zerg didn’t actually 4th pool, so I don’t need the cannon after all.”

Not a big deal, he made a forge, might use it later anyway, 2 gate and you rbasicaly lost one zealot of production to guarantee you ahd a forge enarly enough to stop 4th pool, but now you’r elike, “don’t need the cannon after all” so you skip the cannon.

So anyway, th eprotoss is “in yoru face zerg, you have no defender’s advantage on a map this small”,and so the zerg eventauly gets contained on one base,nad the protoss “plays safe” and makes 2 or 3 high templar and nowhere to run orhide, and again no defenders advantage, so there isn’t enough time for queens ot get up to 150 energy on blood bath, so no counter to expert HT, epxer don’t lose their HT easily. So then he just has an observer and strms your lurkers, or maps is so small he can just blind guess, or suicide a zealot and guess where the lurker is and stomr I tanyway. Not much you can do about it. And then the protoss is like, “well I control middle of the map, and this Zerg is screwed, but just to maek sure the zer gis screwed, I’ll take the other two bases now. Nothing the zerg can do about it now.”

And then obviously the Zerg can’t win, beause lol, 3 base protoss vs 1 base zerg.

You wrote an entire book about Brood War gameplay mechanics, strategy, and build orders to blow Terranic out of the water, but forgot that Terranic doesn’t play starcraft, just lists unit stats.

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Wade is a total embarrassment to human beings.

Well bisu’s broodwar PvZ build is invalid. It builds into a lurker contain by sacrificing the timing of groaund units.

I don’t care if I lose likie one overlord vs corsair harass, as long as I don’t lose 3 or 4 overlords, I’m fine. And di don’t care if bisu makes a reaer or two in a shuttle, because hydraisks with splits beats reavers, at lest one shuttl eworth of reavers, I oviusly don’t want to try that vs 6 reaers form 3 shuttles though, but he doesn’t have time to get that big before my hydralisk hammer counter-attack is rammed into his natural, and worst cae for me is I withdraw a few spaces, set up a lurker contain, and take 5 bases and 12 hatches with 96 workers.

The zrgs he was beating like that were doing stupdi crap, like zerging rushing his ramp, which he bocked with 4 probes and 2 sealots, and so when his corsairs come out, the zerg is behind in larva count, because he as "dead units’ namely the useless lings, and so now the zerg doesn’t have enough larve to make enogh spore colonies and hdyralisks to stop the corsars, so now when bisu gets the revers, he face-plants the zerg, and they called him a “God” because of it, and the truth of the matter is the Zerg was just an idiot.

And it wasn’t just one zerg, they all did the same damned thing and tried to Zergling rush a protoss ramp, asnd guess what? every public noob zerg above F- knows you cannot ling rush a protoss or terran ramp in Broodwar, bu tfor some reason, "Korean “Pros” where doing it every tournament, every round, every week, every yer even. and losing every single time.

Which shows they have no clue whatsoever how to play Zerg, because they don’t even figure out hwy they were losing. The reavers didn’t beat them. They beat themselves by killing their own economy with a bad rush build on a map tha tfavors playig Defense, like lost templr or python or similar maps.

The zerg did not lose because he “got beat by reaavers”.

The Zerg lost because he beat himself with a bad rush build and killed his own larva count and drone coutn, nad on 1 base or 2 base timing, you cannot afford ot lose even 3 drones or it mushrooms out of control and you fall infinitedly behind.

I rest my case that neither the Teran nor protoss in Kroenad pro gaming did not undertand Zerg, and the Zerg players in Korea did not understand their own race. They literally sucked at playing Zerg.

“Bisu bonjwa”

No, he beat some scrubs hwo never belonged in aowrld championship touranenet in the first place.

Dude… I don’t want to be rude or anything, but you came out of nowhere and started posting these large blocks of text nearly daily. I’m sure there’s 1-3 people that care enough to read through it all and reply, but what are you doing? It looks like you are just blasting the forum with bizarre thoughts and experiences you have in Starcraft. No one wants to read your thoughts, your C class essay, or your rants about how this game works.

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You know, some people docare, I originally met Playa and TadSTryker on the old bene tforums, back in t he day of Broodar, and among everyone I met on bent, they treated me better than anyone including teteding me better than most people I know in real life.

How did I meet them?

Ranting about Seg blanace isues related to droneing mechanics that Blizszrd till doesn’t understand about heir own damn game., specifically as it related ot 1vs1 and 2vs 2 timing attacks.

So paly and stryker offered to paly 2vs2 with me, nad I accepted, and we played games together for ean entire season and I met playa again a bit later too, but the point is you’re wrong.

The best player on USEAst recognized that I actually undertood gameplay mechinics nobody else undertodd, and he wanted ot be my friend.

So you know, get lost guy.

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u keep doing u wade. don’t let the haters bring u down. these long threads, even if nobody wants to read them, are more relevant to starcraft than the general PPP whining and denying of facts.

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Thanks and stuff, and sorry about the typos. I think I was too tired to respeond. I and seriously distracted too

Most people simply don’t waste the time to read walls and walls and walls of text, or to go look for links that aren’t even posted properly: I looked up every single one of those searches (both individual names and the text) on BWreplays.com — Starcraft:Broodwar Replays and they always come back with “No Replays to Display”.

This is the same reason why I rarely bother to engage with tehbatz.