So leveling tactical dispatcher I’ve been wrestling with the delay to gas income from building command centre first.
Building barracks, marines and then a command centre lets you build refineries much sooner than the alternative giving the sort of early game boost that lets you deploy Liberators or other high cost gas units.
Thoughts?
Isn’t tactical dispatcher P2? How does this affect your usual opening?
I think whether it’s CC first or Marines first, that’s entirely up to your choice for the map/comp.
Personally, my opinion falls under you don’t need the marines.
I thought the basic build order was gas on main, barracks, drop marines on expo gas rocks, expo gas, then expo CC.
Possibly a little different for P1 due to factory or starport first.
Isn’t standard the non P1 standard Nova build Dbl gas, barracks, marines or ground static defense for rocks, Dbl Expo gas, Expo CC?
P1 Starport build Dbl gas, Starport when enough gas with Barracks at same time, drop marines and or use ground static defense for rocks, first set of Liberators at 750 gas.
I always built barracks before 2nd CC. Unit cooldown is seriously limiting Nova and unit cost won’t allow you to place 2nd CC on the expo early anyways.
The only time i build CC before refinery is in the first few levels of Nova where I don’t have auto-refinery.
I recommend marines if you’re using them later. Static x 2 if you’re not for a simple salvage advantage.
You should not wait so long to build your refineries. SCV, gas, SCV, gas, scv, scv, barrack or CC is my start build order for p0 / p2 if mineral based build.
Gas, gas, then scv, scv, scv, etc, if u want lib build.
Both Nova guides I’ve found (TL and the SC2coop) have the same recommended build order for Nova:
14 Refinery
15 Refinery
18 Command Center (next to rocks)
19 Barracks
22 Marines -> Rocks (refinery rocks first then main rocks)
However, Barracks -> Marines before CC significantly increases gas production at the cost of some long range mining (assuming that SCV production is continued by the time the second CC finishes the mineral lines are fully saturated).
So,
Barracks first = more gas (for early libs/ghosts/tanks)
CC first = more minerals (for more early bio/gols/griffin strikes)
Not sure what the exact difference in income is but I think I’ll start always doing gas first as my playstyle feels restricted by my gas income rather than my mineral income.
Double gas before SCV production build is interesting for Nova Air (I guess on P1). What does it translate to though, an extra 150-200 gas? How much mineral does it cost?
It depends on how you’ll play. For most compositions, you’ll follow the guides’s suggestions of SCV production, 2x gas, Barracks or CC.
You get a tiny bit more gas if you went Gas then SCV, basically by reversing those x 2, for earliest set of Liberators on maps like SoA. That difference though is so kind of tiny that it won’t be much, but it is technically faster…
Alternatively, if you’re a solo-Nova type of guy that Griffin Strike happy. Then doing 2 SCV then Barracks into 2 static is better for mineral income. And it’s a no brainer on why, you’re focusing entirely on that. You can then make gases x 2 at main after you get your CC for expansion (off side still cuz static won’t have killed the rock yet).
Point is, if you’re a good Nova player, you’ll pick and choose your opener appropriately. There is no one opener that fits them all. However, if you’re getting technical on things like “fastest Liberator opening” then yeah there’s a 1 opener that’s best… if tht makes sense.
For more standard economic opening you should Refinery before Barracks/CC as it basically provides 3 workers for the price of 2 (100 minerals of the Refinery), surpassing even CC first opener in terms of economy.
My personal way to go is 2 Refineries asap, Barracks, Deploy 1 Pod of Marines and then your second CC. The minerals for the CC will line up perfectly while the Marines are breaking the rocks on expansion (on maps easier to take natural).
This is what I’ve figured out for myself as well.
Certainly it makes a big difference to Nova’s economy when an ally can break rocks.
Going double gas before any SCVs on a “lib build” must delay the 3rd and 4th refinery by an equal amount giving minimal net gas benefit and a mineral penalty?
If u go lib / raven build with p1, it doesn’t matter because this build needs more gas than minerals.
U will have ton of mineral but gas starved when u finish.
I’ve started trying Barracks first as Nova in some niche circumstances, normally if I want to fast-expand and clear the rocks quickly, although normally it’s still better to go gas first. One exception to this is if you’re on Rifts to Korhal and your ally has a slow ramp-up and few defensive options, but even then this is rare because they usually have options like Toxic Nests and Structure Overcharge etc, while Nova is really the only commander who doesn’t have much to compensate at this point. Then again, if you’re facing the Polarity mutator or something where you need both commanders to hold off the first wave, then it is more justified.
You can get away without marines on every map. I prefer it mostly cuz you can make 1-2 static, deal with wave/rock, salvage and you’re ahead.
Not that minerals is a huge issue for Nova. However, during early games when you want to push faster, you’ll need that extra mineral for some Griffin Strike. 600min is still quite a bit for choosing not to use bio the rest of the game.
I’m not a big fan of skipping early SCVs to rush your first 2 Refineries. The reason is that if you skip your early SCVs, your pod of Marines will arrive later and your 3rd and 4th Refineries will be a bit later, so it ends up being basically almost the same gas income compared to a normal build without skipping workers in the long run.
With that in mind, you can surely cut some early SCVs to get the first 2 Refineries asap to get some early gas boost with P1. Those 2 or 3 early SCVs mineral income make a noticeable difference in the long run but you will float minerals regardless. Your bottleneck will be gas.
When I play this kind of style with Nova I also highly recommend breaking the rocks at the natural gases before the big rock of the base so you can get your third and fourth gas quick.
Elite marines do 4units x 9 / 0.75(mastery) = 48DPS for 600minerals
4 x 9 / 0.86 (no mastery) = 41.9DPS
Railgun does 3turrets x 30 / 2 = 45DPS for 600minerals that returns to you, net 0 cost. They also penetrate on expansion gas rocks like OE or VL.
People keep talking about how marines are so great… they are not… seriously unless you’re going bio. You’ve really invested in something not worth those early game 600min.
I really appreciate your analysis on so many things but it feels like you have a tendency to overlook things that don’t fit with your argument?
For instance, the 45 DPS that the railguns do will start 25 seconds later than the marines similar DPS and even though they can be salvaged the 3 SCVs not mining for 25 seconds plus the walking time (and then some walking back) certainly does have a mineral cost.
So there is lost minerals in mining time (even if those SCVs are in the lower band of mineral production) and lost gas in delayed refineries (25 second delay roughly).
But really though, those elite marines do so well against so many compositions that how often are they really superfluous (and if you scout and see that you don’t want marines they can often be replaced with Mauraders).
I wonder if the 25 seconds of build time for turrets would actually be enough that opening siege tanks, libs or banshees would be an option on a P1 or P* build (obviously different calcs for these two different scenarios).
Just so you are aware of the difference rather than calling me “over looking things” lol.
A saturated mineral is 102mineral/min. You’ve saved yourself 50minerals for that 25sec.
Basically to reach 600min difference. You need to have made 15SCVs at expansion (that’s 17sec x 15 / 2CC = 127.5sec), then mine for a whole minute and some (almost 2min to break even). So that “smoooollll” difference in getting marines earlier doesn’t net you more income. It nets you 4 marines. And that’s fine.
I’m not telling you or anyone to use turrets. Just telling you that if your goal is to “get ahead”, then you’ve done the wrong choice there.
25 seconds of lost mining time x3 SCVs: 28/60x25x3=35
Walking time to get to rocks (lets say 10 seconds): 28/60x10x3=14
Walking time for 2 SCVs to return to mineral line: 28/60x10x2=9
25 seconds of delayed gas production on each geyser: 163/60x25x2=135 gas
25 seconds of delayed mineral production at expansion: 143/60x25x5=297 minerals
So, using Turrets instead of Marines costs 490 resources. Assuming that the Marines have 0 value after breaking the rocks.
SoF Factory opening seems to me that Siege Tanks would be better despite having to wait for tech lab to finish building. 58 seconds to build Factory and Tech lab and 1000 minerals and 725 Gas to deploy Siege Breakers who have double the DPS of Turrets or Marines.
SoF Starport opening takes 90 seconds to deploy Liberators with Raid Artillery who have 4x the DPS of Marines/Turrets.
Got my rock health wrong. Anyway:
Marines take 83 seconds to break rocks.
Turrets take 114 seconds to break rocks.
SoF Siege Tanks take 102 seconds to break rocks (definitely better than turrets)
P0 Siege Tanks take 134 seconds to break rocks (20 seconds slower than turrets)
SoF Liberators take 112 seconds to break rocks (only 10 seconds longer than turrets)
Sabotage Drone can do up to 600 damage versus buildings with Mastery?