just to access mules you need to pay 150 minerals for a command centre upgrade plus 150 for a barracks. in order to increase their use, they should instead make them available sooner.
that isn’t really the case if you play zerg. The problem with losing drones as zerg is that you need to use larva to build units so you stop losing drones, zerg are very momentum based, when you are ahead with a bank a big army and lots of bases, it is easy to stay ahead (so long as you don’t trade really badly), when you are behind with less bases, a smaller army or no bank, it is hard to recover.
Terran are classically the race that can come back from anything, even in pro games you will see Terrans pull the boys and go on the offenses in an attempt to even or win a losing game.
Replace drones u need minerals it’s not balanced if Terran can loose all scvs and drop mineral line zero by building marines. How is it fair if they can keep collecting minerals all they need is energy
If you can’t see that as a balance issue then why are even forums just say Terran rules.
Plus’s to even queen cost 200 minerals plus 150 minerals for queen.
So question comes to do we nerf Terran economy to Zerg and toss or we buff Zerg and toss. To Terran lvl
That’s not how that works lol. If it was, then orbitals would cost 700 minerals (CC, orbital, rax) or at bare minimum 300 minerals (rax, orbital).
Repeat after me - “Terran doesn’t get free minerals”
If there are no minerals to mine, Terran doesn’t get anything from the mules. They don’t generate anything. They simply mine them faster.
Yes, I will freely agree that it can be a come-back mechanic. But so is Zerg’s larva production.
You can do the same with lings. Or Zealots. Banes specifically were nerfed because they killed workers - probes in particular - quicker than pretty much any other unit in the game, and that’s saying something considering widow mines exist.
It’s not. Different races are different.
We’ve seen it happen a couple times with protoss too, but I’ll give you that - certainly true. Doesn’t make it a balance issue though.
In saying that, usually the worker pull happens because you have no frontline to tank damage and you are truly going all in - if they hold, they win the game then and there, even if it continues a couple minutes longer.
Zerglings and Zealots both serve as a much better frontline than probes or drones, particularly being melee units, both because of their damage output, cost (in the zergling’s case) and their health pool is generally more cost effective too, something that Terran units generally don’t have - though I’d argue the hellbat serves that purpose for mech, it fails spectacularly when it comes to being a front-line for bio for a variety of reasons I won’t get into now.
This game is out for more then 13 years, and people still don’t understand mules/terran eco is actually slower then zerg and protoss.
Only if you constantly attack and harrash over and over mules are pretty good then. However if you constantly kill workers and trade better it makes sense that you should win.
Might be slower but compared to strength of Terran army vs Zerg. Zerg need to be 3 to 1 but mule makes impossible.
Take whole minute of 16 drones just cover cost. If this was age empires then it be fine.
Mules cost energy to produce minerals were every other race has spend minerals to produce minerals. This is why it’s broken on top of this you can have more then 1 on minerals patch. Drones probes or scvs be one per patch But you can have 4 mules on one patch. Mules change that rule this is why it’s been dumb to allow this go on for 13 years.
There is dumb things in Terran that makes op and give them major advantage.
Scan is so broken not even close to creep tumors I gladly change Terran to have scan vs creep tumors.
Mineral unit that counters mineral unit how dumb is that once gas is gone Terran wins. It should cost gas and redesign raven cost no gas make turrets cost 120 energy remove matrix and reintroduce repair drone.
So, while I agree with your actual idea in that I think the MULE is ridiculous, please note:
MULEs do not “produce” minerals the way Supply Drop, Chrono Boost, or Inject Larva do, they’re more like a loan. But unlike those systems, they do not require a mineral investment before they are able to return minerals; so it’s still a fair complaint but it’s not horrifyingly the worst thing ever or something like that.
You cannot have multiple MULEs mine the same patch at the same time in ladder. While you can drop multiple MULEs on the same patch, they bounce just like ordinary workers if another MULE is mining already.
And, finally, Chrono Boost and Inject Larva are also absolutely ridiculous. I do think that the MULE is the strongest boost of the three mechanics, but I think it’s made up for with how Terran production is about the worst at getting units out of the three races?
Look at all ur games at 5 min mark before any attack and tell me how far is drone vs scvs. Because if Zerg not 15 workers ahead then mule is not justified.
Now because mule makes Terran innnmune harassment and keep up minerals/ min rate up that taking out scvs doesn’t slow them down.
That is the difference of mechanics that Zerg can produce more workers than Terran t that is why Terran has a MULE or are you gonna complain about MULE in early game?
The only part where it becomes spammy and too much is from 2+ expands. Which is super late game. And early game even double expanding Terran is vulnerable and MULEs from them are made to be equal to Zerg on 3 bases just one produces more larvae and drones
That is indeed the case im glad im out of this game like wtf still comparing different mechanics
Terran eco starts slower, because they train workers slower and workers need to stay on buildings to construct them, but once bases are mostly saturated, Terran has the strongest eco because of mules.
Usually, Terran income is pretty much in line with Protoss when their second orbital finishes, despite a significantly lower SCV count, and it gets better over time, since Protoss stops chronoing probes and both players begin to saturate their mineral lines. Vs Zerg, the eco tends to stay a bit closer early, because putting on pressure forces the Zerg to make units, which keeps the drone count under control, but Zerg takes the lead whenever they feel safe enough to drone up, until both players have similar 3-4 base saturation later in the game and mules more than compensate the worker diference.
Terran units also tend to be the most efficient, which helps compensate that weaker early economy.
Protoss eco starts faster, because workers can leave as soon as construction of a building is started, and chrono accelerates production.
Zerg eco starts off similar to Terran, since workers are lost to make buildings and larvae are also used for overlords (Pool + 2 hatcheries is -3 drones + 1 for each overlord produced, which compensates the faster production), but they produce workers the fastest in the long run and can saturate 3-4 bases much faster than Terran or Protoss.
You clipped out a few important parts of that message. Way to dishonestly argue.
As Asamu stated, the Terran economy starts out the slowest, but in the late-game the oversaturation of Mules produced by multiple Orbitals allow a fully saturated Terran to out-mine fully saturated Protoss and Zerg.
That’s actually because Terran units are more efficient. They don’t usually need to mine as much or make as many workers because they can generally get by with less resources.
It’s also not really the case. Terran very quickly mines bases with mass mule drops in the late game; in split-map situations, they can mine out before a P/Z opponent, or at a similar time, even if the opponent was up a base and 10-20 workers for most of the game.
That totally depends on the skill, avoiding novas and fungal growth/bane is not that easy.
Even Maru dies sometimes from novas when coming from area that is not visible (not scanned, upper ground, or just good move with war prism and disruptor etc.)
Do you watch games at the pro level?
Terran almost always trades more efficiently. Even when it loses, it often trades efficiently. It also usually makes less workers, or is well behind in workers until much later in the game, which is compensated for by mules and better efficiency.
Of course terran needs a solid economy. Saying Terran units are more efficient so it can get by with less and doesn’t need as large of an economy =/= saying it doesn’t need one at all. Being down 10-20 workers when the opponent is at 70-90 isn’t a crippling difference, and Terran units (when going bio), are cheaper per supply than protoss/most Zerg units (Lings and roaches being the exceptions), and often trade favorably on equal supply with minimal micro.
Terran usually expands later than P/Z both because it has a weaker eco in the early game, and because it needs either more expensive production or key techs to put on really effective pressure, and yet, it is usually the aggressor in the mid-game because its army is better at putting on pressure, despite being cheaper.
Sure, everything is relative to skill level, but the top level is generally what defines balance changes. Terran has the biggest gap between top level performance and lower level performance, but, given how competitive it is at the top level, you can’t just buff it.
Nerf mule? We need to nerf zerg power in general or specific units like ultralisks or swarm hosts.
Protoss is designed to be a noob race but they are counterable. You just need to play atleast 4x better. So generally there is no need to nerf Protoss, it’s just noob friendly race, not OP race.
But zerg is the race that should get a few hits from a nerf bat asap. You can’t win VS zerg if they know what are they doing. The only good thing is that the only 1% of them know how to play zerg properly and react to every enemy attack.
I don’t want to sound one sided there so I can say that the zerg is HARDER to play than Protoss however zerg is much more OP if you know what you are doing and have a bit of skill.
or are you gonna complain about MULE in early game?