IDK the dmg doesn’t change if lukers lose fast burrow so if that’s an issue, it’s a skill issue. Git gud.
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u are so dumb.
u really talking about cannons and lurkers? lol
The biggest strategical change was that Protoss finally used motherships against lurker based armies. You had Dark sit on 4-5 bases as hero spammed gateway units into him only to lose to a nydus in the main. Then they realized that ICA could have as much mobility as gateway man armies with a mothership and PvZ has never looked easier. Tossground with a mothership>>>>>>>>>>>skytoss.
Nah, warpgate, blink, charge, warp prism is the highest mobility unit comp in the game, and that was true ever since they buffed zealot base movement speed. The mobility is so high, they don’t have travel time to attack (warp prism) nor to retreat (recall) nor to defend (warp in). Protoss is the most mobile race in the game by a very large margin. Every toss unit has at least 4 teleport abilities (nexus recall, mothership recall, warp gate, prism micro). The problem is that the players are crazy slow players. They picked toss because it was slower paced. They moved up the ladder to where they couldn’t progress any further without mastery of hotkeys and multiprong, but they aren’t good enough to do it. What’s changed is that having double recall allows the mobility from a single army hotkey, which means they can now be mobile without having to learn multiprong.
The hilarious thing is that protoss is the easiest race to multiprong. You attack left while you counter attack on the right with warp ins. It’s a 1 hotkey configuration. If they can manage the 3 brain cells needed for 2 hotkeys, they can add in a prism and fly it to the zerg’s main. In the airspace, the prism could hit 4 locations. The zealots could hit any time on the right. The army could push the left lane at any second. They have the stronger army already, and now you have to split up. It’s a no brainer why it’s easy to win here, but they are so bad at starcraft that they can’t manage to multiprong without royally screwing it up. Any time they try to multiprong, they instantly get outmanuevered and something terrible happens like they hit their army with their own disruptors or a-move all their templar into lurkers.
Ground toss isn’t cracked because it’s super vulnerable to multiprong and then they just lose all their templar to banes of something like that. Skytoss is a lot scarier because zerg has no significant air splash. They have to f2, amove, and rapid fire feedback while wiggling their mouse. If the zerg does get a wombo combo off, you recall instantly. You regen shields and then move out once you have a new recall. It’s impossible to lose because there is no splash. VS ground toss, you have lurkers.
Another challenge is that how do you deal with static defense vs air toss when you have to mass so many corruptors? His ground defense is untouchable. With lurkers vs ground toss, you get a double nydus going and soon enough he will lose either his main base or a far off base. You hit when he’s maxed so he can’t warp in. He can only recall to 1 location so the double nydus is guaranteed to get through. This is assuming he even notices it on the minimap, which is unlikely. From there, 20 lurkers delete his main base in about 10 seconds. They then pop back out on the defensive and blinding cloud obliterates his army.
Mass lurker + spore + viper used to beat both skytoss and ground toss using this mechanism, but you’d have to grind out a 40 minute game with a trillion spore crawlers. Literally all gas goes to lurkers except 3 vipers (then double nydus, once maxed) and from there you spend 100% of your minerals on spore crawlers. You need 1 queen.
The tempest changes this because there is no way you win with spore crawlers anymore. I don’t know if the infestor fudges the numbers anymore, and they probably do vs carriers, but vs tempests it’s doubtful. Tempests require the corruptor response, that drastically hurts zergs ability to be aggressive vs buildings, toss is free to expand while keeping zerg contained. As long as he doesn’t butcher the micro, I don’t see a way to win. Then again, I haven’t been playing much and when I do I just 2 base swarm host nydus them or whatever. That works well enough until you run into maplez and then it never works ever. So if the toss has any ability to scout and classify builds, it will go late game, guaranteed. I am back to leaving vs protoss opponents. As long as the mmr hit isn’t too bad, like -50 or whatever, I just leave. Sure it’s 4900 mmr instead of 5300 but it’s just not worth the headache of dealing with a protoss who actually knows how to scout, lmao.
You will win, eventually, and I do all the time vs people like maplez, it’s just that the win takes extraordinary effort to the point it’s just not worth it. Vs terran, there is a definitive formula to win in the late game vs 5.5-6k terrans and it’s you get to broods, put 20 lings in a nydus, and start to push with the broods while nydusing his main with the lings. You go heavy on the broods and rely on spore crawlers for AA which gives you unusually strong anti ground. Since terrans are responding with thor ghost, it works well to max on broods with no corruptors. You have like 5 infestors vs ghosts and 2 vipers if he has thors and it’s impossible to lose. He just can’t keep his ghosts in the right spot. The ghosts are the most mobile part of his army, so he has to use them to respond the nydus. No matter where he puts the ghosts, you can always take advantage of it somehow. Zerg late game is very strong vs terran. VS protoss, well, you can’t win fights 1 on 1, you can’t win via efficiency, you can’t win from counter attacks, you can’t win via base trades. Last patch, you could win the 1:1 army fight as long as you massed spores, but the tempest makes that non viable now. What are you supposed to do.
VS ground toss, getting out lurkers with range and a single viper is the most important aspect of the game. Nothing else matters – not even upgrades. He simply can’t attack into lurkers with blinding cloud.
Oh, ground toss is also extremely vulnerable to mass swarm host plays, and mutalisk tech switch plays. It’s very possible he over makes immortals and then you just make 20 mutas and win. Skytoss has none of these vulnerabilities.
Oh and let’s not forget how ground toss is obliterated by brood lords. You have to go lurkers first, unless you are ahead, so you go lurkers, once safe you start a hive and a spire at the same time. A common response is to go tempest vs the lurkers and so you set up a counter attack with some lings when he tries to push with the tempests and while he looks away you surprise him with 12 or so corruptors. Delete the tempests, force him to use a recall, instantly morph broods. From there there is no way a ground toss army will be able to beat 12 broods and 10 lurkers. It’s just never happening.
VS skytoss they usually open void ray, so making corruptors is pure suicide. You have to open hydras or queen infestor. Both royally suck in a variety of ways. Hydras can’t deal with storm. Queens can’t don’t have an ability to deal with tempests. The best thing that works is to go hydras with burrow. Toss players are so braindead that you can actually just burrow your entire army somewhere, they won’t make any detection, and then you just unburrow it and win. This is actually really common with double stargate openers if he has to rely on oracles for detection. Why would he cast revelation on a random spot out on the map, you know what I mean.
So, yeah, the strategy of the game hasn’t changed much except that buffing the tempest removes the only option zerg had for dealing with skytoss, and this cements protoss as the strongest race by a very large margin because there is quite literally no way you can win except through multitasking. That technically is a change to the strategy of the game, but not really. It’s a removal of a strategy for zerg in a game that already had too much repetition. This is probably the worst version of SC2 to ever have existed.
The only thing we can hope for at this point is that the map pool is radicalized enough that it opens up some vulnerabilities in the toss defense, but that’s unlikely given their aversion for trying new things. Toss is getting out an tier 2 unit that guarantees the needed scouting information to make the right decisions before the zerg has even left tier 1, and you’re supposed to find a way to somehow surprise the protoss with aggression? Never gonna happen. So really it’s the oracle buffs in combination with tempest in combination with the exist tech leads that protoss already had that accumulate into an impossible position.
https://i.imgur.com/atsn9lZ.png
Just clapped heromarine with 1 base swarm host. It was an incredibly easy game and I guarantee he’s never seen this strategy before. SC2 as it is played at high levels is 100% apm spam. I am not even playing very well because I haven’t played in over a month. 7k mmr EU is strategically worse than 5k NA.
Sortof announces he is going to be streaming other games until a balance patch fixes ZvP, which he considers unplayable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_YGgxd0DA
Gotta love the fact that the man has self respect. It’s a lot like an abusive husband, right. He beats you, but you stick around to let him beat you. Protoss players thought they could play out their power tripping fantasies and that other players would just take the beating and say “Please sir, I want some more.” It’s a matter of self respect, because you know you deserve better than to be protoss’ punching bag. Mad respect to him for taking the Idra route. Will he go full idra and completely stop streaming? Who will be the next streamer to pull an “Idra”? Place your bets here!
The only thing I am disappointed in is how even on an issue as black and white as this the streamers still can’t find the impetus to use strong language. You know he knows protoss is imba, but he doesn’t say it, and instead he says he’s not having fun and needs a “distraction” from sc2. It’s like, come on, man, you have a mouth and a mind and you can say what you think. The suppression of “wrongthink” ideas is frankly Orwellian.
I’m not denying that Zerg is in a garbage spot in PvZ, but the fast burrow upgrade should’t be a thing. Its like giving Siege tanks smart Servos (which would never happen), but stronger, since its on a unit thats simultaniously a soge unit, incredibly mobile, has 200 hp, has no minimum range when sieged, is rapidly mass produceable and is invisible when burrowed. It’s absurd to think its balanced.
Protoss units don’t suck. They really, really don’t. They may be better in some matchups than others, but they don’t suck.
Then why do they trade worse than photon cannons? So the lurker is op because it has cloak, no minimum range, comes with burrow built-in, but what exactly is it that makes cannons so good (since they trade better than lurkers do):
https://i.imgur.com/kxZt93y.png
Imagine you are playing against lurkers, except they trade at 2.2x the effiency than they currently do. Are you imagining it? It’s the same unit, just TWICE as powerful. Congrats, you now know what the immortal is like. But, yes, let’s keep crying about … lurkers.
Send 1 unit ahead of your army. If the unit dies to lurkers, you stop, siege, scan, kill the lurkers, unsiege and keep on rolling like there were no lurkers there. At most you lose a marine and a scan. This is why lurkers are so bad. They are easily outranged and that allows them to be displaced. None of the factors you listed are relevant when range is a trump card. Let’s give zerg a 10000000000000 hp lurker but 0 range. Congrats, the lurker is useless. You could give it a trillion hp and it wouldn’t matter because range is a trump-all card.
Likewise lets give terran a cannon that mounts on a command center. It does 1 damage but has infinite range. Terran would have a 100% win-rate in all matchups. They’d turtle to infinity and wait for the planetary-cannons to slowly grind every enemy unit into paste.
This is why the lurker trades worse than a photon cannon, which is frankly pathetic. It’s an awful unit, no idea how people can think they are good, but this is why they are bad. Range trumps all. It’s also why cannons do so well. They outrange the units they typically fight (zerglings). Give the lurker 14 range, like the carrier, and we can talk about it being OP.
So you f2, stim, and attacked into 20 lurkers from a single angle and think they are OP now. Time to learn game basics. Split a marine forward during move outs, it dies, you siege and you scan. Rinse and repeat until your push reaches a base. It’s as easy as pie. Is this too hard? Fine, make a raven. Put raven at the front. Problem solved.
Side note, bernie put out a propaganda piece on youtube. This tells me he is controlled opposition. He’s supposed to fill populist left space to prevent a real populist from ever gaining traction. Meanwhile he plays interference for actual populist causes. So a lot of his video is opinion, and very bad opinion, but his statement on Navalny is pure propaganda. Navalny never had a chance to challenge Putin. He got terrible poll results. But he decided to try to grift money from the west by pretending to stand up to Putin. Putin is like whatever until they discover the dude is a crook, and so they arrest him and let him out on bail. He violates the bail terms, and so they put him in jail. The dude has a heart attack and western media is freaking out that Putin took out a competitor. Mind you, they make this claim as they try to frame Trump as a criminal, exactly as they claim Putin did to Navalny. First, Putin wouldn’t arrest the guy. The guy would disappear. Second, they wouldn’t let him out on bail. Third, they wouldn’t ever risk the international political backlash of whacking an opposition leader. The entire thing is absurd from A to Z and yet bernie is getting the propagandist message out. He is 100% controlled opposition to fill space and prevent populism from growing on the left. The #1 enemy of the populist left is inflation and #2 is immigration. Inflation taxes your savings. Inflation makes it impossible to afford a home. Inflation shrinks your wages. Immigration is inflation except applied to labor. It inflates labor supply, deflating your wages. The populist left should be against the war in Ukraine because the bonkers spending is driving inflation, but Bernie is saying keep the war going. He’s also saying lets take in refugees. Do you know who benefits from an endless supply of cheap labor? Corporations. This guy is quite obviously not a populist left leader. He is definitely controlled opposition.