LOTVs Biggest Flaw Exposed : Hatchery Should Not Give Supply

With LOTV, the “supply” given by a hatchery was raised by 300% (2 to 6), Nexus was raised by 150% (10 to 15) and CC was raised by 136% (11 to 15). It makes no sense that the Hatchery got buffed more than the other “bases” because it was already the most useful.

Also, Zerg have “control” instead of “supply” and they get it with overlords and hatcheries. But what if the Hatchery did not gave control, but instead the queen, in addition to costing 2 control, also gave 2 (or 1) control?

First is that it makes more sense for queens to have control than hatcheries.
Also hatcheries already do so much for the Zerg it would not matter if they did a little less.

Some will probably say the queen already does a lot too. To them I respond that I think it would make the game (arguably) more balanced, because it would be more punishing for the Zerg to lose queens, and they are also harder to defend than bases.

For the start of the game Zerg would just start with 2 overlords instead of 1, raising the starting control from 14 to 16. Other details can be fixed, like raising the supply given by the CC and Nexus from 15 to 16, or the price of the queen or hatchery, etc…

In hopes that this message reaches the person it needs to be read from…
Thank you

I think the hatchery is a nexus of vulnerabilities, e.g. supply, income, production, mobility, vision, tech, production and/or upgrades are all available through the hatchery. That’s a bit excessive, don’t you think? If a zerg loses a hatchery, it’s an absolutely massive blow to, well, everything.

But, giving supply to queens is a bad idea because zergs make loads of extra queens anyway, which would basically eliminate the need to make as many overlords and that’s just reducing the mineral cost of zerg’s supply mechanic.

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How about just removing the 6 control given by a hatchery then?

Zergs would now start the game with 2 overlords, so 16 control. Supply of both CC and Nexus can be raised to 16. Mineral cost of zerg supply then increases, and also larva cost would be increased (3 more overlord per 4 hatcheries) making the game (arguably) more balanced.

Also I feel it would make the game cleaner as all races would start with the same supply.
All races would also get to exactly 200 max supply. For T and P, depending on their number of bases, they would always end up at 200 max supply or 192 which is exactly one depot/pylon from 200. Z would always get at exactly 200 control with 25 overlords; which, again, just feels cleaner, more polished.

1.Do you realize that the builds are completely depended on supply? Changing these values, would change the build orders.
2. There are 0 problems which this change solves.
3. Sc2 is out of development.
4. Currently, the balance is in the hands of pro players.

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First, build orders can be changed and adapted so at least it could be tested in the PTR.

Second, Zerg players still win most premier tournaments, so yes it solves a problem, it will effectively nerf Zerg in the long-game while giving them a small buff at start, meaning that cheesing against them will be less effective/harder but playing macro game will be less disadvantageous.

Third, SC2 developpers still make patches.

And finally, I guess I have to become a pro to be heard? Fine.

It literally does not matter, adding or subtracting a couple of control isn’t going to change anything.

That would not change anything?
Oh, but I am not even finished yet…

By making all races start at 16 supply max, it would prevent the small 1-2 seconds supply block terrans have at 15/15.

Then for protoss, they could chrono boost right from the start without having a 4-5 seconds supply block at 15/15.

Also both T and P would get another additional supply for every bases so they would have until 48/48 supply on 2 bases to make another depot/pylon instead of 46/46. It accelerates everything, and that alone would change everything…

Also see above for Farbros s post who says this balance change would “change the build orders” whatever that means, so I guess he also thinks if my proposition is accepted by developpers, it could dramatically change this game…

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand… I did not even mention Zerg yet, which would be the race most affected by this change. I already explained in the posts above how removing the 6 supply given by a hatchery would affect Zerg in the long game… but let me remind this to you: the value of 6 control is 75 minerals since 8 control costs 100. So this balance change would actually be like raising the cost of a hatchery from 300 to 375 minerals…

So if you still think that removing the 6 control given by a hatchery would not change anything to this game, then maybe you should change… game.

Can’t you see that it should have been like this since the beginning of LOTV?
Like I said earlier, just the fact that every race would start at 16 supply and ALWAYS end up at exactly 200 max supply would make the game look cleaner, more polished…
And the fact that it would also prevent the 15/15 supply block for both T and P (if they chrono boost) would just make the game FEEL better.

And by the way, is it not weird that Protoss cannot chrono boost at the start of the game without being supply block at 15? It feels like a noob trap and people sometimes start the game using chrono boost without thinking and can feel like they already screwed up their game/build.

If SC2 was my game I would be mad at myself for not having thought about this balance change before.

Thanks for giving me a chance to further explain myself.

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Unfortunately there is almost no difference between using chronoboost right at the start or after the first pylon.

Let me clarify what this balance change proposition, or design flaw fix, is about:

1- Zerg start with 2 overlords instead of 1.
2- Supply given by Command Center and Nexus changed from 15 to 16.
3- Supply given by Hatchery changed from 6 to 0.

LOTV simply should always have been like this and here is the proof:

1- The second overlord is not a big deal, it could only help Z scout for cheese.

2- Before LOTV, starting supply was 6/10 for Protoss and Zerg, 6/11 for Terran, so basically 4 workers could be produced for P and Z until the first supply block. T did not have the time but had an 11th supply to prevent a 10/10 supply block of about 6 seconds.

Now with LOTV, starting supply is 12/15 for P and T, 12/14 for Z, so a 3 supply gap to being supply blocked for T and P, and only 2 for Z. That creates a problem for each race:

  • T have an unavoidable 1-2 seconds supply block at 15/15.
  • P cannot chrono boost from the start without a 4 sec. supply block at 15/15.
  • Z almost cannot profit from their larva production advantage early on because only 2 workers can be produced before the 14/14 supply block.

The production rate of larvae from a Hatchery is 1 every 11 seconds and a drone takes 12 seconds to produce, meaning that Z gain only 1 second on drone 14/14. With a starting supply of 12/16, Z would gain 1 sec. on drone 14/16, 2 sec. on drone 15/16 and 3 sec. on drone 16/16.

All of this shows that the game would be more balanced if the initial max supply was 16 for each race because it would better preserve the starting flow of the game pre-LOTV.

3- With LOTV, the supply given by a Hatchery was raised by 300% (2 to 6), Nexus was raised by 150% (10 to 15) and CC was raised by 136% (11 to 15). It makes no sense that the Hatchery got proportionately more buffed than the other bases since it is obviously the best of the 3. Raising the supply it provides was a mistake because Z were already more incentivized than T and P to build their bases. Z also spend less resources on infrastructure, so it is only fair that they spend more on supply.

Also before LOTV, if a Zerg maxed out on 8 bases he would have saved exactly 2 overlords worth of supply (8x2 = 2x8). Normally Z were maxing out even before reaching 8 bases, so only 1 overlord would be saved over the course of a game from supply provided by Hatcheries.

If the Hatchery did not provide supply, Zerg would not have to produce even 1 more overlord than pre-LOTV to reach 200 supply since it would only be provided by overlords. As incredible as it sounds, because 200 is a multiple of 8, it prevents Zerg from having to produce an overlord for a fraction of 8 to reach 200 max supply, saving them 1 overlord, same as the Hatcheries did before.

In LOTV, if a Zerg is maxing out on 8 bases, he is saving 6 overlords worth of supply (8x6 = 6x8). Depending on its number of bases when maxing out, now a Zerg saves about 4 overlords from supply provided by Hatcheries, which is about 3 less overlords to produce than pre-LOTV.

So basically, with LOTV, Zerg were given about 300 minerals worth of supply and 3 larvae if they max out on 6 bases, while T and P, who normally max out on 4 bases, were given only 200 minerals worth of supply per game since T gets 4 more supply per base (4x4 = 2x8), and P gets 5 more (4x5 = 2.5x8, so only 2 pylons saved). Again, Z also spend less resources on infrastructure, so it makes no sense that they end up saving more than other races on what should cost them more than other races. Z also save larvae when saving overlords, so it is even more impactful for Z than the other races to have fewer supplies to produce.

Finally, raising the supply given by the CC and Nexus from 15 to 16 will always save the construction of 1 depot/pylon to reach exactly 200 max supply because 16 is also a multiple of 8. And by removing the supply given by a Hatchery and making Z start with 2 overlords, each race would start with the same max supply and always end up at x/192 or x/200 supplies, which is simply a better gameplay design.

This proves that with LOTV, the Hatchery was overly buffed by changing the supply it provides from 2 to 6. Instead, the 2 supplies provided should have been removed and Zerg should have been given a second overlord at the start of the game to compensate.

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