I think she needs serious update and buff, since introduction of Brutal+, she has falling behind several far miles with other commanders.
1. Her units either lacks dps or have rather low cost efficiency. Protoss generally can’t repair. But other protoss commanders either has shielding, 2nd life or buff others when they die. For Vorazun, even trading a few units is bad for late games.
2. She also lacks nuke dps, when in higher difficulties brutal and beyond, Amon will send multiple capital ships or ground heavy assault units. Even if you blackhole perfectly, her army simply can’t finish whatever that are trapped. Timestop is a great calldown but it is dwarfed by many other newer commanders.
3. Attrition, this is my biggest complaint for vorazun. Her recall and P1 hardly ever covers the regular loss, even if you utilize oracle traps, blackhole and timestop. She simply can’t recover army fast enough. Void ray has a 60sec build time.
4. Weak Defense. Her signature defense is cloak, but that doesn’t work on Amon at all, for Amon’s units either have build-in detector(hybrids)and high HP you can’t eliminate fast enough, or they literally coming out of nowhere amidst the battle. I tried prioritize them over other dangerous units, ending up losing more than usual.
5. Very unimpressive prestiges, I understand that they are not meant for buff but different play style. But really, Vorazun all three are silightly nerf to vanilla or doesn’t help nullify her weakness at all. P1 basically changes nothing but more micro-friendly. P2 is sheer self-mutilation. 20dps that is nonlethal is like a mock to the face. P3. I haven’t reached yet but looks you need to promote unhealthy play style to lose units intentionally to build late game.
TL;DR: This commander is seriously obsolete and underperforming. She needs buff. Before you bash me as low, consider those argument I posted. I play brutal and sometimes brutal +1 with friends, not the expert but not noob either.
You should get Vorazun’s P3. The continuous Shadow Guard and Time Stop adds up over a game, whether it’s 15min or 25min. You’ll have an unstoppable army of SGs that in turn give way for whatever strategy you want to use.
I can’t emphasize how good P3 is really, just a solid upgrade. Although, I totally understand the work it may take to get it. And that might dissuade people from it.
The thing about her is that despite the automated vespene, she’s a very gas starved commander so it takes a while to reach critical mass.
Her units are very good, the problem is how many you need to deal with an attack wave because this point is indeed accurate:
However, I’d say her prestiges are fine, what I don’t like about it is that it doesn’t change her playstyle that much.
P1 is extra minerals for cannons/centurions with slow pushing potential.
P2 is abuse abilities+centurions to finish them off, works best at dark archon+centurion comp because confusion spell and stuns working on any hybrid.
P3 is her strongest prestige imo, time stop is your free shadow guard calldown so even easier time sniping objectives.
So yeah, Vorazun has huge objective snipe potential and deal with attack waves without getting hit, by no meams she’s weak but mutations with early agressions or less economy do counter her as she needs a lot of tech to get good units out.
I think Vorazun is in a great spot specially with p3, some of her units could afford to get buffed (pretty much everything except dts and corsairs), but Vorazun is not a weak commander at all, it just takes a bit more effort to get the most of her.
I think a reason many people struggle with vorazun, specially in the early game, is cause most people pick the ts mastery (80% of my allies use this mastery according to maguro overlay), I recommend going for the shadow guard mastery and trying to learn in what maps it’s better to delay the shadow guard and when it’s better to just use it at 3 mins, the extra duration for shadow guard many times allows you to get away with rushing to dts without making anything else to defend and not depending on the ally.
Also cloak really works as a defense vs Amon and cloaked walls are an important part of mutation play for Vora.
With p3 it is not necessary to spam shadow guards, if you only use the normal 1 shadow guard and never use it against it’s still an upgrade over p0 as you’ll be getting 1 free shadow guard every ts.
Yeah contrary to many people’s belief, Shadow Guard has a lot more utility than the early game rock breakage.
When used tactically in P3, you have nothing to worry about all game long. Quite literally going all Corsairs is a viable strategy without a single ground unit made.
It is perfect if the fight takes place on land. More DTs can uncestwic inches of enemy waves in the blink of an eye.
It can handle the mass of weak flying units quite well. the problem is big ships like Battlecruisers, Tempests. They have a lot of armor, and without getting them caught in the black hole, the Corsairs don’t hurt them much. Mass Void Rays is good on Dead of Night and other longer maps as long as there is no flying zerg or more Psionic Storms Templars. A moment of inattention and you can lose everything.
Vorazun has one of the strongest skills on the top panel. In conjunction with Artanis on the Scythe of Amon, you do not have to fight the enemy, except for the destruction of successive waves. Swap Artanis Bombing from the top panel and Time Stop by Vorazun. You don’t even have to fight an enemy when you activate these skills in turns on each obelisk.
As for the talents. P1 is better than P0 In return for no teleport, units are healed for free until they are fully healed.
P2 agree with you is a mistake. Dark Archons are monstrously expensive and 20dps is definitely not enough.
P3 is by far the best. The longer the map, the better.
Another reason I think people struggle with Vorazun is that she really punishes mistakes, misclicks, or even just not paying attention to your army for a few seconds. Fungal, storm, yamato, etc can really ruin your day. But when played well she can do immensely well. Some of the hardest mutators are completely trivialized by her crowd control.
Here you are not penalized for your ineptitude when using Corsairs / Void Rays, the game is over if u made a mistake and your partner also suffers losses.
Vorazun is perfect for crazy mutators, e.g. this one: Speedy resurrecting invisible propagators
P3 is definitely the best prestige without getting into mutation specifics, like Black Death. It’s my new default for Vorazun. Even if you use SG just once, it pays for itself at the first TimeStop after.
P2 is interesting crowd control without using the top bar - spam Confusion and/or Disruption Web and then send in centurions. But this requires a lot of attention in different places.
P1 is good for those who don’t use Dark Pylon Recall much, or don’t need it depending on the map.
While the unit comp with P0, P1 and P3 doesn’t change - considering how little life vs shields most of her units have, P1 doesn’t actually give all that much with its full health-restore. Unless you lose your entire army to one storm or infest or parasitic bomb. It’s nice to recall near the battle, than at the nexus. But that’s about it.
P1 could have been something fun and memey like Void Rays get cloak (by default or from the fleet beacon) but all other units lose cloak. Or no other army units can be made, not even Oracles. But P1 with large DP range provides those benefits anyway, without the losses. And Beam Weapons apparently don’t get the attack speed buff so that would need to be fixed.
It’s sad the P2 is the only truly unique one but by far the weakest and requiring the most micro. With the reduced damage reduction (75% instead of 50%), it’s not that bad for late game but makes her early game weak AF, and except SG’s @3, it wasn’t strong in the first place. And Dark Archons cost too much to mass early and use confusion constantly. Lose Mind Control for a 50% gas reduction on DA’s? Then yeah.
More on topic: Her Tech tree to DT’s & Corsairs is waay too long. The earliest you can start researching shadow strike is ~4 mins (Gateway - CCore - Twlight - Dark Shrine - Shadow Strike, etc.). Corsairs are quite useless without cloak (Gateway - CCore - Stargate - FleetBeacon - Cloak). No doubt Stalkers can be used for early power but hope you don’t get marines, swarmy or anti armour enemies. And good luck getting army units out if you try for both tech paths at the same time.
?!?
I think you have a typo there. I think it was supposed to be like this.
“considering most of her expensive and important units (air) have much more life vs shields, P1 is a significant buff to Vorazun and cover one of her major weakness allowing her to recover her army better. Usually you lose your entire army to one storm or infest or parasitic bomb. It’s nice to have an automatic recall and healing ability than some cheap teleport.”
That’s an interesting perspective. But the choice isn’t “no recall vs recall”, it’s “recall with full shields vs recall with full shields + full health”.
Stalkers, Void Rays, Corsairs, Oracles have health >= shields. The others are shields > health. Just saying, P1 doesn’t make that much of a difference.
Good if going mass Void Ray, with at least 15 points into DP range and never letting them step out of DP field.
Why does it matter if HP > SP or vice versa? Is the idea to measure a commander or prestige based on how bad someone plays it?
Regardless of where one stands on P1, it’s benefit is intrinsically counter intuitive. Any mechanic that grants benefit only when player makes grave mistakes is a bad mechanic.
The idea is to either counter properly to minimize loss, or micro properly to minimize loss, or use top bar to minimize loss. If a player counts only on A-move into a bunch of Seeker Missiles, Parasitic Bombs, and Yamato Cannon, then trickle respawned (SP or HP+SP) units into enemy base… something’s gone terribly wrong a long time ago.
Not knocking on P1 but the idea is that it doesn’t matter on that HP/SP issue. Both are equally poor as a mechanic. It’s nice to have, much like Guardian Shell but not a mechanic that should be used to compare how good P1 is.
Vorazun is OK, requires some time to get critical mass of units, but with right usage of top bar you get there reliably. Just remember to build units that are actually good, not just mass Void Rays and A-move into AOE damage like half of the players do.
What? P1 doesn’t reduce emergency recall cd, it reduces cd and cost of dark pylon.
Lol yeah, was that just a typo/misunderstanding or is it some undocumented benefit of P1? If it were true, then hands down it’s vastly superior to P0.
Because emergency recall only replenishes Shields, not Health (except P1).
If only for grave mistakes - sure, not a helpful mechanic. But in general, Vorazun’s units are squishy and expensive so losing them permanently is a game-breaker. Any decent anti-ground enemy is going to kill a few DT’s before getting wiped. If none of the DT’s were being ER’ed, that would noticeably drop Vora’s power level. PS. I’ve not seen even streamers snipe detectors before engaging, even though that would make your army instantly invincible, except to bosses/objectives.
The Invincible Invisible - woulda been a good name for one of her non-existent prestiges.
Yeah, I can understand losing a few in an engagement. That’s only natural, but even then the idea is to not engage and lose many. Relying on Emergency Recall is just not a good tactic (that’s why I said it doesn’t matter P1 is HP/SP vs SP in other prestiges). Really just saying, no need to debate with Cerebrate about how P1’s added HP is somehow a savior mechanism lmao.
The issue most players have with Vorazun is not that “they lose a few DT/Corsairs” here and there. It is because they keep losing them. 3 here, 3 there, 3 more again… and they never reach that critical mass. Once that critical point is reached, you’re fine (as you would with any facerolling army). I’d rather spend 3 x Black Hole to bridge my army to that critical mass than “save free energy” and try to kill a wave just so I can lose % of my current army.
And that’s the problem and issue I’m pointing out. Relying on P1 to recall and save your units is just bad strategy all around, regardless if more units have HP than SP or vice versa.
And you’re absolutely right, the correct way to play is kill off the detector that comes with the waves. If the player is too cheap to use a Black Hole or too inexperienced to do so, then the next sensible thing is to kill that 1 Raven, 1 SV, 1 Overseer, 1 Observer, etc. that is usually with the wave… and usually lagging behind. They don’t get to +1 until you reach mid-late game, which you should have a whole army already… (or perhaps not, since these players keep losing stuff before that critical mass).
I wish there was a way to change the status of oracles not to be F2 selected if I chose. And I wish there was a to make Kerrigan/ Zagara Queens F2 selected if a chose.
Like a toggle to make a unit status go from combat to/from support.
Yes I use control groups for certain units but I also do some F2. Sometimes I speed my oracles too far ahead and die.