Youre the one trying to speak with authority. The one who needs to be establishing their credentials here is you. I can and have been critically analyzing it, far more objectively than you have been, and the threads are all there if you care to hunt for them, here and on the old forums (rip the post counts). BW took a sharp plunge in storytelling quality compared to the original, in part I think due to the substantial increase in simultaneously moving parts, but the original is about as good as its going to get within an RTS framework.
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I think the plot could be significantly improved, factoring in deeper politics and logistics and character dynamics, and there’s nothing inherent in the RTS format that prevents that. It requires creativity on the writer’s part.
I tried so hard and got so far…
This be a fine game, Imma chime in quicklike.
I have read books before and shall continue doing so.
I like giving it, and if I think it’s well-founded or reasonable I will listen to it and decide how to improve upon the criticized part. Except about my meat eating habits. Vegetables are practically grass and only my food eats grass.
Standard space fantasy with some reality to it. Doesn’t even compare to the great sci-fi books I’ve read from Lem or Asimov.
Currently playing through StarCraft 1 so I will hold on the judgement there. StarCraft 2 could have been a lot better without certain character redemptions, prophecies and evil gods.
I can criticize it (have done, am doing it and shall continue doing so) and I can analyze it (have done, am doing it and shall continue doing so) but can I blend the two together? As a rule of thumb I don’t cross streams.
Sure do.
I don’t negotiate with literature-fascists and won’t give out my trade secrets. More KMC sure would improve the story though.
Sure there is. Nobody is going to sit there watching Mengsk negotiate with the leadership of Antiga for an hour and a half about the exact terms of their joining the rebellion. That’s boring. The player needs to actually be doing something, and since the RTS engine can only handle them doing RTS things except in the most extremely superficial ways, that means youre going to be fighting something.
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Excuse me, I will quote myself.
Or your leader dying because of heart attack in the middle of the battle he had high blood pressure due to his love of eggs andsausages which resulted in high amount of low density lipoprotein (bad cholesterol in layman’s terms) and sodium levels in blood that led to the aforementioned high blood pressure.
No one.
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Great! Things we can agree on.
Starcraft wasn’t originally pitched as wacky space fantasy. That was added later on. I think it is detrimental to storytelling and should be excised. (Note that psychic powers are not inherently space fantasy. “Space fantasy“ is largely about aesthetics and themes and framing similar to epic fantasy, not how hard or soft the science is.)
I think the story should strive to be more like the greats, though truncated to fit the RTS format. More detailed explorations could be relegated to supplemental fiction rather than during gameplay. For example, text storytelling in the codex similar to the Souls games.
What do you think?
I never suggested that. We don’t need to know details that needlessly slow down the story. I think the story should do more to give a believable feel to the politics and logistics. The existing story is quite shallow and lacks important context for its events.
Would you please try playing devil’s advocate or steelmanning my argument? I’m sure that would help us both to get a better understanding of one another.
Jokes are not helping me. Would you please try playing devil’s advocate, steelmanning or something like that?
Whats “unbelievable” about it, exactly? The idea that a charismatic leader on the side of “don’t poison people with bad food or annihilate their planets with nuclear missiles” would have significant popular support? You cant just say “the politics are bad”, that’s not even worth engaging.
We aren’t interested in helping you. Youre the one trying to convince us of the legitimacy of your position. It needs to stand on its own merits, not on the pity of the other side. If you feel that nobody is understanding you, its almost certainly because youre just communicating badly.
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The politics are shallow. Is that worth engaging?
The Confederacy’s behavior is moronic and it staggers belief that their population hasn’t revolted long ago. It needs a ton more depth before it comes across as anything other than Metzen strawmanning the Confederacy to make the SoK look good.
Grey and grey morality is hip nowadays, so why not take that approach? Give more depth to both sides.
I said that multiple times already. That’s why I asked you to try playing devil’s advocate. I don’t really have the emotional energy right now to give a detailed analysis of anything.
To be honest, I’m afraid that no matter how detailed my analysis is, no matter how many dozens of pages I write, you’ll just shred the whole thing anyway with absolutely zero interest in even entertaining it as a serious proposition.
I shouldn’t even need to have this argument anyway. ToxicDefiler already wrote a reboot. I wrote a google doc myself. Would you please read things like that and get back to me with your thoughts?
They have revolted. Several times. Its literally where the Sons of Korhal came from. Do you know what the Confederacy did the last time there was an armed rebellion? They nuked the entire planet. That’s why its a desert in BW. Arcturus even specifically mentions this, and explains that its how the confederates remain in power, but that theyre researching using the zerg in the same manner so as to cut down on the obvious guilt for doing so. Antiga is also specifically called out as a hotbed of anti-confederate sentiment that has revolted in the past, which is why there is an Alpha Squadron (ie the rebel hunters) garrison there.
All these things are in the game. You need to pay more attention. That’s why I keep dismissing your points. Theyre just straight up wrong.
I will absolutely shred it without a moment of hesitation if you cant be bothered to fact check it before handing it to me. What baffles me is that you seem to think the problem is that its coming from you, or that im lazy or something, and not the fact that the story that youre criticizing doesn’t exist.
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What does that mean?
As far as the storytelling goes, I wouldn’t mind more of them loading screens from SC1. They were neat in their design and were able to tell a little bit of the actual happenings between missions without having to rely on us finding out useful information. I also liked how you can talk to people in SC2 though, but some of those dialogues were kinda crap at the same time. I hated how Jimbo had to be the last man talking every time.
I think StarCraft is still a space fantasy. SC1 seems to be about a bunch of evil sons of ditches that all want to rule, avenge and generally push their own career forward, etc. Gives me nice vibes.
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Read ToxicDefiler’s reboot pitch and tell me what you think of it. Or read my pitch on google docs and tell me what you think.
No. First off, ive done both of those things, and that conversation died very quickly. Secondly, if I wanted to talk about rebooting the franchise, I would be on a fanfiction forum somewhere talking about that.
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I’m not interested in debating you about canon anymore. It’s pointless and clearly will never go anywhere. Read the alternate pitches and tell me if you think they are more or less interesting than canon.
No. If you want to talk about it so badly, go make your own thread or go to a fanfiction site. Stop trying to hijack threads just because you lost an argument.
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I did make a thread a while back. Please go post there.
I don’t even remember what I was trying to argue in the first place besides a vague “I think the story could be improved by not relying so extensively on plot devices.” This falls more into the realm of opinion, I suppose, and not something arguable in the first place. My mistake.
If the thread died, its because nobody was interested in talking about it. Take the hint.
And what hint what that be? You want me to go die in a fire because you hate my opinion?
I’m tired of going around in circles. Could we start over? Wouldn’t you rather have a constructive conversation?
I think that the story could be improved by making a few changes. That’s just my opinion. Do you think any of my suggestions would result in an interesting story? More or less so than canon?
The hint that nobody is interested in talking about your bloody fanfiction. In case telling you that explicitly wasn’t obvious enough the first time. And no, I am absolutely not going to play this game with you. You’ve done a pretty good job of destroying any good will I might have had. If you say something specific, ill respond, but im not about to go out on a limb for you.
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TrickyHunter went on a rampage I see.