Just another day breaking the rules

Just another day breaking the rules of SC2:

https://i.imgur.com/fKZTD2A.png

30 minute game w/ half to a quarter the income. This would be considered unwinnable if you played classical macro styles. That’s where people get confused. They conflate greed with macro. They are two distinct concepts. Greed is a type of macro play that emphasizes risky investments into economy, but that’s not the only way to play macro. You can make tech investments and play for efficiency instead of economy.

It used to be that in HotS everyone looked down on the “cheesers” aka people who cannon rushed and 12 pooled. Macro was considered the hard way to play. Now, the LotV economy is so bonkers strong compared to any other play that it is ironically the cheesy playstyle now. Literally anyone can spam drones and auto win but basically nobody can play an aggressive or tech based style. It’s a dying art. The more time goes on, the easier it becomes to win with these styles when in HotS they were the norm and so everyone knew how to deal with them. Now drone spammers dominate tournaments and whine if the close mineral patches throw off their timings by 5 seconds.

Tech based macro plays are way more interesting than greed based plays because the win conditions are more complicated and unpredictable. Greed based macro win cons are “well, you had more units so I guess you win.”

This is what the minimap looked like at the 13 minute mark:

https://i.imgur.com/bQ5CiZo.png

Lmaoooooooo. So much more fun than watching roaches headbutt in the middle of the map.

2 Likes

I couldn’t agree more man. I was banned recently for going off on how bad everyone is now compared to the past. Since around LOTV came out the Sc2 community has had a mindset obsessed with neurotic efficiency implanted into them by idolizing elitist European pro players way too hard. The kind of people that think worker scouting at the start of the game will “put you too far behind economically” in diamond league, and then complain about dying to cheesers on the ladder. You can’t make this stuff up xD.

But yeah I would argue people are LESS skilled now than they were 8 years ago. The game has been streamlined for players so they don’t have to think or adapt to difficult/complicated situations anymore. Introduction of things like F2, inject stacking, warpgate hotkey, and the ladder pool being pigeonholed to strictly 2 player maps with 3 free bases have made the game way too easy and inflated the upper end of the ladder with BOT like players. You know the kind that only do the exact same build every single game and then say “reported” and put you on ignore when you blind counter them.

Like I swear if they removed the F2 function my MMR would go up like 500 points lmao. The players I run into now in Masters/GM are DOG WATER compared to the players I would play in HotS.

The game has become less dynamic over time to cater to a community obsessed with cookie cutting and repeating the exact same game over and over. In PvP for example there is literally no amount of micro or unit composition you can make that impacts the outcome of the game. If they decide to F2 across the map with Immortal/Archon and have +2 attack and you don’t have +2 attack, the game ends.

And by gosh you better be sure they know what you’re doing anyways because every map layout is the same and their decisions on where to scout are predetermined because everything about the game is being spoonfed to them.

2 Likes

There were two self reinforcing processes that created this:

  1. The game started out with a slight preference for high speed players. High speed players dominated esports. Blizzard asked for balance feedback. Pro players gave feedback which was overwhelmingly biased towards faster play.
  2. The tournament people wanted more action in tournaments, and faster play creates more action. All the feedback they give is also overwhelmingly biased towards speed.

If pro level sc2 selected for strategical players, these processes would’ve honed in on the strategical elements instead. For example the way you win with strategy in a game with a defender’s advantage is to trick your opponent into attacking you when you are ready or into letting you attack them when they aren’t ready. A method for this is to make a bad move. The bad move makes the opponent think there is a vulnerability, so he will attack. You then hard counter whatever attack you think is coming. That’s how it works. Signalling a weakness, but having a followup that is more refined than their attack. Your followup has to be more refined because by creating a weakness you put yourself behind. So you are giving up your footing in the game in exchange for knowing what your opponent will do next. That’s how it works.

That’s not how SC2 currently works. It’s about getting to an ideal worker count as fast as possible, then burying your opponent in so many little fires that they don’t have the APM to deal with it all. Eventually they make a mistake, and that mistake compounds into a loss. It’s literally APM spammers spamming APM at the other APM spammers until one APM spammer spammed slightly less APM spam than the other APM spammer and died.

Yeah I remember getting banned on the old forums for calling out an EU gm who said worker scouting isn’t worth it because of the mineral cost. I pointed out that for 99% of people the 50 minerals lost would be unnoticed but the ability to identify cheeses a minute earlier is worth its weight in gold. I even accused the guy of trolling the forums with bad advice meant to deliberately derail gold league players. If I wanted to prevent new competition entering the skill market, that’s exactly the kind of advice I would give: advice that is technically true, but highly misleading.

Absolutely. Talent peaked in 2015-2017. Innovation was the king during that time period and is definitely the SC2 goat. Serral and Clem only came after the talent pool had declined drastically.

I regularly run into people who don’t know game basics like undersaturation, saturation, and over saturation. Oversaturation provides maximum income per base. Under saturation provides maximum income per worker. Saturation balances the two. Most macro games are played at saturation, but both under and over saturation are both extremely useful tools. The key to a lot of 2 base timing attacks is over saturation. You have nearly the same income as a 3 base player but you have a tighter defense. This allows you to launch a series of hard multi prong attacks while you expand and transfer workers from over-saturation to saturation. This allows a 2 base tech style to play a macro game with equal economy.

Yes exactly. :100:%. The SC2 pro scene is filled with bots who do the same build on repeat until it’s perfected and this makes esports extremely boring. It’s the main reason I don’t play high level sc2 right now and haven’t for years. It’s way more fun to play more diverse strategies but the cost you pay is reduced performance. So I am now a measly top 50 GM which ironically is a huge bruise to my ego but I care more about having fun than being competitive.

But that’s why Serral is currently whining that some maps don’t have enough close mineral patches because it throws off his attack timings by like 5 seconds. The entire game is about the speed to achieve a target worker count and nothing else matters. The game is a shell of its former self.

Not only should there be 4 player maps, but asymmetrical maps and asymmetrical spawns. The layout of minerals inside of bases should vary radically rather than being a clean and organized cluster right next to the command center. There should be maps where players spawn in the center instead of the corners. There should be single base maps. There should be island maps.

Yes, some of the maps will favor one race. That’s fine as long as each race has a map they are favored on for each matchup.

I actually think it’s a form of obsessive compulsive disorder. People with OCD have repetitive thoughts which manifest in a process they do over and over, like cleaning. If they make a mistake in the process, they start over. So you’ll get a guy cleaning his house ten times a day. That sounds a lot like the way SC2 pro players grind the ladder.

Another thing worth noting is that OCD people also tend to stay indoors in their controlled environments which is the perfect place to play video games. I think the SC2 pro scene is dominated by people with pathological levels of OCD. They are obsessed with perfecting build orders down to the second of a timing attack and making a single mistake makes them want to throw their monitor out a window.

Strategical play doesn’t jive well with this because it requires more adaptive and dynamic and messy game play. There are no “clean” wins in a strategical win. Strategical wins are about making the game messy deliberately for finding an advantage inside the mess. There are no clean build orders. There are no “right” or “wrong” answers. Every build is a winner and ever build is a loser. It’s all about how you play it out in the moment that matters. There is no memorizing the correct answer with 1,000 games of practice because there is no correct answer.

The difference between strategy and mere optimization is that optimization takes control over variables in a system to maximize the probability of an outcome. This can be done without any knowledge of how the system works by simply play testing a random assortment of things and seeing what wins and what loses. It’s the hot water method: you turn the knob until water comes out of the faucet hot, but don’t know anything about what’s actually happening inside the system producing the hot water.

With strategy you are dealing with an intelligent opponent who can manipulate the same system, meaning there is no expectation of trust. It’s like having two knobs that can both manipulate the water temperature, and what answer the opponent chooses is unknowable until you also choose. How do you get hot water now?

Getting a good outcome with this system is very a much a matter of knowing the exact mechanics that govern the system because they are critical for measuring what the opponent is doing and countering it.

2 Likes

Yea the narrowing castration of the map pool was probably the biggest influence in watering down the game more than any unit or balance patch they introduced. It’s such a shame because it’s hard to fully blame the people making the decisions about such things. They obviously get negative feedback from casuals and pros who vocally disapprove of certain maps, and of course that kind of feedback will always be louder than those who just shut up and silently enjoy the game.

I was a map maker for a few years back in 2012-2015ish. I’ll tell you from first hand experience in that community - it’s VERY close minded and hierarchical. A lot of the map making work filters through Team Liquid, which has the same kind of aura as academia. A lot of back patting and trying to win brownie points and clout from pro players and established community authorities. It actually killed my passion for map making and was a depressing environment for creativity. The only way they could make that place worse is to add an upvote/downvote feature.

Maps I’d argue are basically the most important thing for this game. For example I mean look at a game like Brood War. The date of the last patch is older than the birthdates of most of the players in the StarCraft community and it’s still relevant and playable for a lot of folks because they IMPOSE interesting, wild, and sometimes simply BAD maps. It keeps people on their toes, and despite the protest of some guess what? People still play.

StarCraft 2 doesn’t have a chance in hell to match that legacy if we keep trying to make everyone happy and end up pleasing nobody. It’s like working out, yea it sucks in the moment but for your long term health it’s worth the investment of pain.

Otherwise we’ll be looking down the barrel of a pasty 40 year old Winter raving into his camera about how some pro player doing a 4 stalker push at 8 minutes and forcing an SCV building the 5th command center to move command to safety is a sUpeR inTeReSTiNg dEvELoPmEnT in the meta while he forces a smile and begs people to like and subscribe.

1 Like

That’s LOLZ. I swear that kind of thinking is like a mind virus. I’m not gonna lie I occasionally indulge in donating to pro player streams on twitch pretending to be a noob and making statements about the game to provoke a reaction from the hive mind.

It’s kind of like dropping food into a park pond and watching the fish swarm to all get a piece.

I just like the splashes they make xD

1 Like

All true, though I do think some of the players are boring as well. I think that there’s a fair bit of creativity available through the units as well, you’ve got overlord drops, Nydus Worm, sentries, bunker rush, proxy attacks etc. They could play wild if they want. It’s like the King’s Gambit in chess, GMs don’t like taking a risk.

1 Like

With the job they’ve done, They should honestly just revert the ladder to HOTS or bring that ladder back.

1 Like

GM terran has a melt down after playing a strategical game: https://i.imgur.com/FJw8dbt.png

Lmao. High level SC2 players despise strategy. It was a mistake for blizzard to ever listen to these people. Pretty telling that the build is so good that he has to raise the bar to maru and serral in order to win the argument in his head. I didn’t even have to say anything, really. He’s trying to convince himself mostly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idvtat3TbTE

I don’t know if that’s strictly true, there are and were some players that have very strategic styles. Rogue and sOs are the first that come to mind, Bly too, though how high level Bly is or was is debateable. However it does seem that the more strategic and ‘clever’ players don’t fare aswell in todays meta as the ones that are just mechanically better than everybody. Someone like prime Innovation would have thrived in this meta, because everybody just plays standard anyway.

Yep but their performance is very limited. Rogue has been hard stuck at 6300 for years. Pig is amazed that Rogue will win a tournament then bomb in the qualifiers of the next tournament and it’s like, no, that’s his actual performance level. He’s not bombing, he just isn’t getting lucky. You can’t expect someone with a significantly lower baseline performance to be consistent. They need luck to win.

The strategical players are the b-tier players of SC2 – Gumiho, sos, rogue, ty. They win on occasion but they just aren’t in the same class as clem or serral.

The only real way they can add strategy to the game at this point is via the map pool, but they keep making the maps hyper terran favored in the process.

1 Like