It is time for a balance patch!

It is time for a balance patch, because:

  1. The game is pretty much figure it out.
  2. The game is losing popularity, because strats/play styles are getting repetitive.
  3. It’s been so long from the last Balance patch.
  4. Balance it is not the best right now.

Please let me know if you want a balance patch, and what changes would you like to see.

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Honestly I don’t know if we’ll ever see a balance patch again. Yet, at some point, we didn’t even know if we were gonna get map pool changes ; and we did…

So if I had to pick three balances changes :

  • Nerf voidrays’ base speed to 3.6 (vs 3.85 current and 3.5 previous). One can’t have both bulkiness, DPS and mobility, they are just too hard to catch currently which breaks the previous balance of the counters (cyclones, vikings, queens in particular).
  • Nerf lurkers’ offcreep speed to 3.15 base → 3.5 with adaptative talons. Can’t have a siege unit move faster than a regular trooper, nor run-by too easily other siege units.
  • Nerf BCs’ tactical jump, by increasing the cooldown to 180s and extending the vulnerability period during casting to 6s (+3s invulnerable when appearing at target location).

There are plenty of other details that could use balance tweaks, but if I were to address three, I would pick those. :slight_smile:

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Pretty straightforward, yeah Voids are a bit too strong, and lurkers seem hard to deal with, even for S tier class terrans have a hard time.

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:man_facepalming: :man_facepalming: :man_facepalming:
It has neither bulkiness nor DPS. I agree that buffing speed should have been the last thing to that unit, but do not exagerate.
Bulkiness: BC, Thor, Carrier, Ultralisk.
DPS: BC, Thor, marine (relative to the cost&supply, Adenal Zergling etc).

No need to make that “complicated”: simply increase 1-1.5 extra seconds the vulnerability-time when BC tries to escape.

I see a lot of voidrays, early BCs and ling rushes.
I don’t know if the game needs to change with a patch, but maybe only my view/opinion on the game needs to change.
I just don’t want to dislike the game.

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it has been losing popularity even before the last patch

The game has been losing popularity since wings of liberty, we should remember that sc2 was the number one e-sport and had many viewers (it is said that MLG had around 800.000).Outside a small booming period after the hots disaster thanks to some changes in arcade+f2p,the overall trend was always downwards, that’s the natural trend.

The game is 11 years old, it is not gonna get mainstream again,no amount of changes will change that fact.
Now,the game could get some change like a small void nerf/battery cheese nerf,improving ultralisk pathing… but the game won’t get popular. This game fate wasnalways end like BW, no patches, only changes in maps. We should be thankful we played a patched game for 10 years even if some patches were not the best.

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Ok why would you want balance patch right now ???

I want the game to be as it is because only current balance patch truly manifests talented protoss players skill (which was not possible during OP -broodwar - infestor era). Also when i beat protoss as terran it gives me 2x satisfaction :D.

So yeah let’s keep the game as it is…

Funny how people did not think void rays were imba when they abused it against me and I compain it here 2 years ago but now when they are losing into it and I have moved on they have started to whine and its not because they need to l2p.

Balance is broken - General Discussion - SC2 Forums (blizzard.com)

People who complain about Voids are mainly Z, is the race that suffers them the most. When combined with batteries, the problem is not the void itself, it is the proxy battery.Proxy can be stopped by T, it’s tricky but manageable and once you stop it you have high chances to win the game.P is the race that has more problems against early void, any P cheese works better against P than against any other race.

But going to the point, T should not have any problem at all at dealing with voids during mid-lategame because outside proxy battery+void, they are an absolute joke against T, they clump a lot so mines are powerful against them, EMP can erase 50% of its HP with one click, mass viking can deal with any kind of mass air from P,bio+ghost+viking will kill any P golden armada.

Remove Shield Battery.
Return MSC (Mothership Core).
Reduce mana price of the Force Field: Protoss problems with Zerg ground army were why protoss static and sky were buffed (Blizzard logic).
Also reduce Lurker range by 1.

For Terran bring back Siege Mode Upgrade for Siege Tank (i.e. tank can’t siege without it). Cheap but long research time.
Point is to end current TvT Raven-Tank clown fiesta.

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It’s time to face the reality.

Thanks.

Actually, lurkers were also problematic to protoss until the meta shifted towards air. But it’s their speed that bothers me, and that since the start. It’s not the speed a siege unit should be allowed to have, IMO.

Voidrays don’t DPS vs light, but actually their DPS vs armored (and thus vs buildings as well…) is among the highest in the game. You mention marines as high DPS units, that’s true : 4 stimmed marines reach 58.8 DPS (14.7/supply) for 10s. But their are also canon glass, as their DPS is reached at the cost of a reduced resistance (45->55HP), even more decreased by the impact of stim on HP (-10HP, so at best 45*4 = 180 HP at the start of a fighty) and their vulnerability to splash.

Yet, Voidray’s DPS can reach up to 55 DPS, which is about the same… and with 250HP. And that without even considering the armor factor, which can reduce marines DPS by quite a lot. I give you that may come as a surprise to many.

As for the bulkiness, hopefully it doesn’t reaches to T3 levels, but compared to T2 flying units it’s toughest by far (≈ twice the HP of a viking/muta, hence the synergy with shield batteries).

However I’m not saying those aspects are necessarily broken. I’m saying that the tradeoff for that DPS and that relative bulkiness was a relatively lower mobility. Hence why I think they overdid it with the latest speed buff. It’s not the individual characteristics of the voidray that I deem as problematic, but the current mix of them all. :slight_smile:

Agreed. Let’s say +3s to the vulnerability time AND a 180 cooldown. The thing is I wish a tactical jump to become a truly committing choice, so that when you choose to save your BC, you can’t use that again to defend an out of position about 1’ later. :thinking:

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great idea. defend ~6min against push / different harass that you have a stable ecco for unit/ tec. then another 3min so you can build ~9+ your hive + 2 hive upgrades.
for a siege only unit, while terran can build a tank ~4min without upgrading with more range.
Terran has answers to lurker example: Ghost/ Lib/ tank. Toss current… air, or if available with immortal/ archon flank attack (depending on number), otherwise disruptor.
Don’t forget Lurker is a T2-T3 unit. That’s why I find it hard to know what to nerf:
Example: Range nerf, changes the interaction between units in most cases. Interesting for Colossus/Ghost.
But for mobility. Zerg plays a lot in TvZ running around Terran bases. And in most cases engage Zerg so Lurkers have to be able to follow relatively quickly (Zerg has range disadvantage). Toss would just go mass disrupter because lurkers can’t get away.
At the same time I would say rather range nerf than mobility… because I don’t need 2 different Brood Lord.

Neither of this units is an answer to Lurker. Tanks and Libs are too slow and not tanky enough, while Ghost snipe is canceled by that same Lurker regular attack (yes Zerg whiners, I checked that in unit tester).

The only answer to Lurkers is playing the game faster than Zerg and harassing Zerg via Medevac drops from multiple sides so that Lurkers are always out of position (somehow, despite their very high movement speed) or go for a large push before Lurkers are out in numbers that you can’t drown in bodies (less than 4-5 Lurkers to be certain).

LOL Chargelots make tanks useless, as well as plenty other toss units. Nobody builds tanks in TvP because of how bad their at anything except defending from Blink all-in, but even than, toss contains Terran on two (or even 1 base) while saturating third base behind, while Terran can’t even hope to go for a push that will allow at least trade equally, let alone do damage.

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A big reason why we might never see a balance patch is it will break AlphaStar(deepmind AI). It took something like 60 human days of training with powerful machines to make it merely competent, all this gets reset with a balance patch. The reset means training starts all over again with only new replays(old ones become useless). Other fields of research interested in deepmind, like ecology, get hindered by a reset. It looks better to other researchers if deepmind can claim it has been training for 2-5years off player data, instead of saying it got reset 15 times.

-Shield Battery change: plenty of solutions: Currently to effective.

-Void Ray: Not going to pigeon hole into a single encumbrance, similar to Shield Battery, it is to effective in its current state.

  • Hydra: Reduce Supply Count from 2 to 1. (Lurker supply remains the same)

  • Cyclone: Fix Lock On CD bug when used with medivac drops.

I think there was a misunderstanding here, I never wrote about PvT but the interaction of Protoss vs Lurker. therefore the quote is meaningless

Clems late game against Lurker… Ghost/ Medi / mine…
yes lurker interrupt snip from ghost (1v1), but you forget the body size. you often see in games:

  • 5-6 lurkers buried.
  • scan
  • several ghost use snip… one will cancel the rest will kill the lurker.
  • 2…3…4… Lurker dies the same way. because the other lurkers are not in range because they block each other.

so yes Ghost are an answer to lurker. btw also to Ultra/ BL and all Spellcaster from Zerg.

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Ah sorry then, I thought you said that tanks are hard to deal with for Protoss

Clem is unique, even other progamers can’t pull that of usually.

Zerg whiner will never admit that of course because they want their free wins against Terran.

If you look at e.g. uThermal guides they are all designed to make Zerg don’t survive untill Lurkers are out in numbers that matter.

Another intersting approach I saw was in the game of milkicow vs Vanya - where milkicow made a couple of Vikings to snipe overseers so that Ghosts can deal with Lurkers. He lost that game though, because controlling such army was too much even for 6K MMR EU player.

Once again, killing Ultras and Broods with Ghosts is something that Diamond player can do; dealing with Lurkers that way is something that only couple of people on Earth can do.

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