On a related note, macroing on 90 drones is way harder than going lategame with toss. Queen defence in general is extremely underapreciated, I’m sure it feels bad when they’re in position to deflect every move you make, but make no mistake, on my level I have absolutely no idea how to position queens correctly so they are far from the impenetrable defence people on here make them out to be. Macroing for zerg (and terran) is also significantly harder than for Protoss. Toss units have significantly higher build times. Zerg has to inject, spread creep, position overlords, and then do everything the protoss does, all the while larva spawn very quickly as opposed to the 7 year build time on carriers and colossi. Toss macro is EZ, your building finished? Make the next one on the tech tree while queueing up one (1) unit which then sits at home. You’ve gotta seriously misjudge the situation and make too many probes to be broken early az P. Zerg on the other hand takes a lot of finesse and let’s just say I’m glad I’m not playing terran bio cause that seems way harder.
But zerg players can just make ultralisks and win in the late game. Ultralisks are also the answer to “kill them before they get there” so you just play the game wrong. You are trying to do everything to prevent terran to tech up but all you need is just to sit in the base, make ultralisks with some speedlings support and win.
Yeah Sounds kinda funny to me. I mean i dont know the Timing when you Hit with how many Units. As Someone who Played skytoss a Bit (Not anymore since its a vastly inferior Style) i would say its pretty Hit or Miss. It was introduced by Blizzard as the only way to make Sure protoss and zerg can Go in Equal footing in mid to lategame since it was even agreed by even Blizzard that zergs early and midgame is Just too Strong against protoss. Now its really Not that viable anymore and i think thats why they Just gamble on their Style. They wont build anything Other than voids and Carriers because they know that If they dont build Them nonstop they will just die to either Hydra or corrupter (Not knowing or gambling that they could die to roach ravager).
I mean i get the Frustration from the protoss Side but i actually dont think that playing Herostyle (or Just massing oracles in early Game for harassment and safety) is thaaaaat hard either. But Not going Herostyle or maybe Turtle skytoss is Just instaloss in my eyes If you want to Play macro.
The bottomline of all of this is that many protoss either dont know that its basically better to Play Like zerg (many bases and Low Tech) or think its too hard.
As a Zerg main, I find it frustrating that T and P can site behind buildings and static defense while massing armies that require the Zerg to have 3x the APM and correct mix of units to win. P and T can make mistakes all game and play poorly and stomp Zergs who make 1 or 2 mistakes.
90% of my T games now are PF/BC with a mix of Thors. I can’t find a way to punish Terrans who execute this well and even if I get Corrputors out, if the T reachs 10 BC’s its just as well to GG out cause I’ll need like 25 Corruptors that I will have to micro while the T just keeps expanding and amoves units. Then they can port around the map and destroy your macro with very little you can do.
Toss is the same. I feel like their starting units are just too strong. I have no idea what to do vs Fast Speed Lots and Archons. Banes+Roach seems way more expensive and if you don’t have 3 base econ with a macro hatch, it’s GG. Don’t see many Carriers as I think it’s easier for Z to counter those compared to BC’s.
It seems stupid to me that you need Tier 3 Casters with Corruptors + the correct mix of ground units to deal with any ground (usually thors and mines) to stop BC’s. The whole thing requires much more planning for the Zerg and perfect micro… The T just sits there and laughs because they have 10 PF’s sitting at the entrance. Good T will also Turret up and keep OL’s out so you can’t nydus.
Scouting used to matter back in the day, but Blizzard has buffed defensive mechanics to such an extreme degree that it’s virtually impossible to lose before the 8 minute mark if you simply play a build that is 4/5ths greed and 1/5th defense. The early game has become a thing you just have to get past before the real game actually starts.
Well, when I started to play back in 2016, protoss would always use prism micro and harass with archons. But zergs were whining about it, so prism got increased price, reduced health, decreased pickup range. Protoss tried to use mass oracles, they were nerfed too and queens were buffed. Protoss tried to harass with voidrays, they were nerfed too. Now protoss just sits behind the static defense and tries to reach 200 limit of sky. Isn’t it what zergs wanted?
void ray nerf (revert of buff) was well-deserved though
Oracles got nerfed because of terran, every other change they’ve had has been a buff vs zerg.
They still received a net buff, and battery overcharge for free.
Maybe you play that way, but vast majority of tosses I’ve seen are playing ground styles. Chargelot all-in, dt expand, immortal archon timing, standard 3 oracle blink into +2 timing, or fakes blink timing into double robo colo.
not to mention the myriad of adept builds
edit: queen buff got reverted and even nerfed further
Well, I do not have any problems with any changes. What I am saying is, when protoss players tried to micro, they got nerfed. So now they just sit at their base and try to get 200 supply. And the reason for it, are the nerfs to the different builds and play styles, protoss had. Maybe they would use archon harass again, if prism nerfs would be reverted, but who would agree to that?
Well, 2 balance changes that I propose for toss are reducing FF cost and making WP upgrade increasing its pick-up range.
Its not like anyone would listen to me lol I’m not even in Masters.
Exactly for the reasons you mentioned.
PS. What I don’t understand is why in this year top Protoss players stopped using Storm to zone out Vikings from Colossus. This is interaction that was around since WoL. We see both MaxPax and Hero loosing Colossus without even trying to protect them with Storm.
Why it is so I don’t understand…
Well, it would not solve anything. Robobay costs 150/150, even if the upgrade would cost 50/50 and be researched in 1 minute, the upgraded prism would arrive when? At 7th minute? When zergs push is already going towards your base? I mean investing in twilight, robo, robobay, dark shrine and an upgrade for harass is a bit too much I think.
I think, because top terrans would emp the templars from 11,75 range and prisms are way easy to focus for them.
LOL
Bio openers are literally 10x times better than mech openers which is the worst play style you can get. Slow, clumsy, siege-unsiege - has 0 potential to deny opponents expansions, just sit on 3-4 bases behing PF, turrets, sensor towers and hope to survive to late game.
The key to beating this is patience. Zergs are making mistakes by bashing their army inefficiently into fortified positions. Vipers are your friends, just chip away unit-by unit, yoink all heavy ordnance tanks, thors, libs and then a move while blinding half of their army - this is even better if you can do 360 surround. In this scenario mech is literally f-ed and it takes millennia to remax.
Plus don’t forget to roll 30 banelings into planetary to deny their eco and collect your GG.
Thank me later
Main point of WP range upgrade is to make WP pick up micro stronger by making us able to juggle Immortals and Archons, because currently you can’t really micro them when they are focused by the enemy.
Well, at least I can’t.
Extra harass potential would be cherry on top.
Disruptor drop build exists and it is done with WP upgrade.
So we would need to just invest exrta resources into Dark Shrine or Archives… or just do Disruptor drop because it would become stronger too.
Was not a problem since LotV release until 2023.
What changed?
Well, at the LOTV release, the was no emp upgrade, ghosts were way more expensive and prisms were different too.
In recent years, more protoss used disruptors, rather than ht, because they at least have a chance to make a shot.
Like what, Terran got 0.25 range of EMP increased and it somehow made Storm unviable?
Nah, I am not convinced.
Prism did have longer pick-up range but I doubt it matters in this case and their range was nerfed long time ago anyway.
But maybe Storm needs small buff like reducing its research cost and/or time.
Oh, and in recent game of MaxPax vs Clem that Winter casted Max went for Storm… and destroyed Clem army with it.
I have no idea, why terrans at the start of lotv did not use ghosts. I remember them using widow mine drops a lot in combinations with lib harass, but ghosts were seen very rarely. When terrans started to use them, protoss started to use prisms.
As of today, protoss can only land a storm if terran will make a mistake. Because EMP has much longer range than feedback or storm. So in that game, Clem had to play really badly.
I have no idea, what that upgrade time should change.
Banelings trade at around 50% efficiency even though zerg’s income is only ~20% larger than terran’s. The only scenario where a Zerg has 30 extra banelings is if he has 2x the army value of terran + 30 extra banes on top of that. In any other scenario, if a zerg did a counter attack like that, the terran can stim into the zerg and instantly win the game, because the zerg’s army is so weak that it can’t win a fight. So if a zerg has that kind of army supply despite trading at 50% efficiency, it’s because the terran played like literal trash. The terran lost the game long before the baneling counter-attack. He was either trading unusually poorly (bad micro) or had fallen behind economically (bad macro).
At most, zerg might be able to afford to counter-attack with about 16 lings. That’s all zerg can afford.
Because at the time ghosts were bad. Snipe got a complete rework and frankly wasn’t worth using at all outside of the extremely niche situation of focusing high templar specifically. It had no purpose in the game.
EMP has 1 more range than feedback and storm (9 range to EMP’s 10 range) and has - an admittedly short - travel time. Storm and feedback are both instant cast, instant damage (though storm is an aoe DoT), so if EMP and feedback/storm are cast at the same time, feedback/storm will still go off even if the EMP hits.
Also it takes 2 EMPs to fully drain energy as they remove 100 points of energy and 100 points of shield. So you need to double-tap templar with EMP not to get stormed, assuming that they have around 150 (feedback) -175 (storm) energy or more.
That said, I do think feedback needs to have the damage nerf reverted. Just make it do full damage again like it used to. 1 damage for every point of energy drained would go a long way to solving the issues in both TvP and PvZ. Templar become a threat again to vipers, infestors, and ghosts because theyre no longer just removing energy, theyre actually dealing significant damage. Rapidfire feedback used to be a really important way of dealing with ghosts and vipers and it just isnt as effective now.
Prism pickup range really didnt matter in TvP, though it did make prisms a little safer cause they could pick-up from further, they still had to drop units directly under themselves, so they would have to approach to get a storm off if there are templar inside.
This was pretty cool to see. We see it a lot less now because Zerg players complained that queens couldn’t kill a prism defending a roach all in with immortals. So archon prism drops got nerfed too when prism range got slapped.
There was a pretty big outcry about it when in a game with either stats or zest (dont remember exactly) soO did a roach ravager queen push and lost some absurd supply count to about 4 immortals and a prism. I want to say it was something like almost 100 supply worth of army. It was pretty absurd, but those moments are so rare that they really should have been kept, because it shows just how skillful some players really were.
Nah. Just make force fields require two biles each to take down.
LOL
We’re talking about zerg vs MECH in case you havent noticed…
Currently “Psionic Storm” upgrade that is researched in Templar Archives cost 200/200 79 seconds.
I’m wondering that maybe - maybe - either cost or research time should be decreased.
Yeah, that’s why I called it an “anti-Zerg” buff.
Would change PvP too because right now Immortals just die too fast.
Yes, and this why I suggested that WP old pick-up range should be locked behind an upgrade.
Maybe, maybe…