I legit cannot fathom how it is still in this game in the state it is. Mass BC/Planetary? No problem. Make an entire army out of just Thors? No problem. Mass hellion/cyclone with the only micro you ever do is click behind your army? CHECK. Why can you siege a-move Thors into Grandmasters with gold level skill? I’ll never understand it.
The real Problem of this Game isnt mech. the real Problem is cheesing.
Here. I fixed it for you.
And please Stop creating These nonsense threads.
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Between this guy, Beardo, and Stryker, haven’t we put to rest the idea that Terran players are the whiniest? I mean Batz has maintained that Zerg has been under-powered for… 8 years or so?
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Because terran players whined enough about their lategame at the start of legacy so now we have the current thor that hardcounters the only capital ship that can’t shoot up, a global teleport on a 3 armour air unit with a 240 dmg burst ability that can move and shoot, and a wm that builds 25% faster than hots.
They also have access to liberators, buffed vikings, banshees, ravens, and tanks, battlemech viability, and what did they trade? Wm lost initial cloak and thors do worse vs mutas. Thors or bc’s by themselves counter 90% of the zerg arsenal already, then add in the ghost to that list and every zerg below pro level is stuck trying to ‘kill them before they get there’.
The changes made to terran lategame around the start of legacy were way overshot, and it only took 5 years for this community to notice.
Glad someone on this forum doesn’t have their head where the sun doesn’t shine.
See what I mean? Literally every Zerg on the forums.
https://i.imgur.com/uUlQPsg.png
Mech has a long history of being absurdly busted (the top chart). They buffed tf out of mech repeatedly, and zergs responded by going mass swarm hosts, but the real issue was the raven / seeker missile being able to delete enemy armies for energy cost only while being totally immune to counter attack / mobility strategies thanks to the siege tank.
The swarm host was basically deleted. It’s rare that it’s used anymore. The issue is that you can put 2 thors into 2 medivacs and basic lift micro hard-counters swarm host play (not to mention other weaknesses such as how hellbats instantly delete a locust wave the moment it lands, or liberators).
Terran, on the other hand, kept almost all the benefits of late game mech play except the raven, which was reworked. Going into LotV, strong mech units weren’t used for mech play, they were coupled with bio and that’s where we are at today. I predicted that would happen, way back when, and I was 100% right. Every mech unit that is buffed will always be used to bolster bio because bio has such an incredible baseline power. If mech is ever to shine, they have to nerf bio. I’ve been saying it for years. They need add a cost overlap between mech units and bio units so that there is a cost to massing too many bio units. Marines made out of a reactor need to cost +5 gas. That would do the trick. Now there is actually a down-side to making too many marines – you have fewer tanks or liberators or ghosts. Right now, there are no downsides. The Terran can get tons of value from marine medivac harassment while mech units make the terran’s defense impenetrable. This is the same dynamic as the HotS-era raven turtling, except it’s medivac healing providing the free value instead of seeker missile.
That’s where the TvZ matchup is at, and it has the same issues that HotS TvZ had that lead to the swarm host era. But, zerg doesn’t have tools to deal with the BS unlike back then. The best answer is the viper, and slowly whittling away at the opponent, which is the same exact dynamic that existed with the swarm host. Sometimes entire maxed out locust waves would land and only kill 1 hellbat, but, if you rinse and repeat for 2 hours, you get a resolution eventually. It’s the same with the viper. You go in and mass abduct anything you can reach without having to lose a viper.
They need to find a way to resolve the game strategically or mechanically, because resolving the game through endurance is frankly ape-brained design.
A good example of a strategic unit was the old infestor. You’d throw out infested terrans, and if they are in the wrong spot they are totally wasted. It took a lot of strategy to figure out how to pin the opponent down and force them to fight the infested terrans. That was a strategic unit. The swarm host was a strategic unit. If you cast the locusts in the wrong spot, they were totally useless. If in the right spot, they would net insane value.
Favoring mechanics that have lots of tactical value, like medivac healing, will result in endurance-based resolutions to the game. These mechanics are about chipping away at the opponent to gain value over time, and have basically zero strategic use. If you get in the wrong position with a medivac, you lift and boost away and you’re fine. The solution to strategic problems is a tactical ability which means strategy is irrelevant. The solution to strategic problems should be better strategy, but in modern SC2 it’s a tactical ability that voids your strategic mistakes.
Blizzard basically went on a crusade to delete strategic wins from the game. God forbid a terran or a protoss lose an army from bad positioning, lmao. What a flipping joke. We just can’t let the game resolve before the 20 minute mark, OK?
as a zerg sh*tter I also struggle a lot against mech myself, I either don’t have enough vipers, control them poorly or don’t have any units to kill all the tanks/thors on the ground, my go to way to beat mech was to tech to broodlords but for the past 3 (has it been 4?) years that hasn’t worked, it’s a real struggle, especially with the larva, we’ve just gotta get good.
After watching some pro level replays I also see that good players use mech WITH ghosts, not instead of them, now THAT must be a nightmare, vipers are the only glimmer of hope I have against mech play, not sure what else to do if they get EMP-d or
sniped.
Lurkers are the go to move for us lower level players against mech I think, plus baneling harassment (people never pay any attention, I fance dropperlords in particular). You have to go to Hive anyway to get full energy vipers in time before the terran decides to roll across with his tanks like it’s 1941. At that point it doesn’t matter what you are abducting units into. So yeah, just siege up with lurkers and spread creep a lot.
It does feel unfair that we have to do so much just to beat a terran that A-clicks across the map, but at the same time we can rush roach rav to shut them down which must feel pretty depressing for them to deal with, that’s just what you get with the asymmetrical balance of the game. Nerfing cool strategies to soothe whiners is never a good idea, we’ve already lost so much cool stuff to patch notes.
On point, but I think your argument dismisses the fact that the entire game would have to be reworked to make sure that strategies that rely heavily on hit and run tactics don’t just instantly throw the game after one bad move, especially in relation to how zerg currently plays with queens on defense.
I also don’t think that all strategies should be on a similar power level at the top level of play. Let good terrans stick with bio, mediocre ones can use mech to roflstomp zergs in diamond and below
The solution to “instantly losing the game from 1 mistake” would be better strategy. You don’t move up a ramp with your whole army if you can’t see what’s waiting for you at the top of the ramp. Back in the day, a Terran could lose his whole army to a single fungal in a scenario like that. The solution is very simple – better strategic planning. Don’t go up ramps without vision. It’s that simple.
The solution to strategic problems should not be tactical. Hitting “R” and clicking, to teleport your army home, basically voids the strategy of army movements and positioning. You can do things that would be strategic mistakes but aren’t because you can recall. This is equivalent to saying that strategy isn’t relevant to the process.
So, no, if you want strategy to resolve the game outcome, you have to have absolutely brutal outcomes for bad strategical decisions. SC2 is not a strategy game, it is a tactical one, and tactical games have an extreme emphasis on endurance because you have to do repetitive tactical interactions to net value over time. This is equivalent to saying that mistakes don’t matter – the average of many tactical interactions matters, and not 1 or 2 – which is also equivalent to saying that more interactions are required to resolve the game, ergo the games are longer and endurance focused.
People who don’t want the game to be able to resolve from 1 or 2 mistakes are essentially arguing for a tactical, endurance-based game.
I agree that the game would be far better if army mobility mattered at all. Warp ins and recalls eliminate a huge factor of strategic decisionmaking. Speed medivacs do the same to a lesser extent.
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I love all the zergs and terrans crying here meanwhile we got a perfect meme for the current situation:
Fill in the blanks by yourself ^^
And funny enough i dont see any protoss crying about how irrelevant the race is right now (despite me mentioning that right now).
(That being said I think that hero trolled a bit too much in gsl and didnt deserve to get through)
And I hardly think the protoss would cry anytime soon, considering their ability to confidently beat any zerg below grand master league sitting on 3 base with battery overcharge, queing up carriers with room temperature APM.
Plus you guys have the easiest time with all-ins, your units are so strong early, a good proxy robo or even a cheeky 4gate zealot spam just absolutely decimates the majority of players. I often off-race with toss when I feel like Zerg is too hard and I’ve gotta say, protoss is a pretty cool race to play, not to play against though.
If you lose to 3 base carrier turtle then i seriously doubt your skills at the game. Hot take: you are supposed to lose if your opponent sits on 3 bases and masses one of the most expensive units in the game that has one of slowest building times and is t3.
If you cant figure out how to deal with that you are supposed to lose.
Thats something that can be said about all races. Every race has some very strong all ins or cheeky builds. Just build some widow mines as terran and collect your freewin or go for 2 base timing vs toss or 3 base 8 rax all in vs zerg. Or look up some of lambos roach cheeses / 12 pool cheeses (OH NO, i meant roach rush macro and 12 pool macro ofc, because you know? doesnt matter what you do with zerg its still considered macro).
Protoss is no different in how easy it is to pull off some all ins.
never heard of that other than flower build? You mean proxy 4 gate zealot? Because otherwise its not a thing btw and can also be said about the other races too ^^ i dont see the flower build in pro play but proxy hatch or 2/3 rax proxy is a build even in pro play…just saying.
1st - I know how to beat 3base turtle toss stargate opener with roach rav on 3gas, however it is a really boring and straightforward build which I hate playing so even when I win against toss I hate it, thus I am salty about toss in general. Like, woooow great, you didn’t make any units and I rolled you over, ggwp brah
You are right in that it can be beaten, so I concede this point, I just dont like the games.
2nd - yeah I meant the flower, it’s not a thing in pro play but in low ranks where I am? I don’t think I recall a single game where I lost with it against Z.
3rd - it’s not about how cheesy the strat is, it is about how easy it is to execute compared to how good it is. 4leaf clover build takes no effort but takes considerable game knowledge to hold, whereas proxy hatch is fairly difficult to execute, not just to hold.
Can’t talk about proxy 2 rax honestly cause I can’t hold it with either race, luckily terrans almost never proxy in my league.
What Terran was crying here?
You were crying about how zergs are crying. And now a single protoss (me) is crying about how on this forum zergs and terran are crying 
Its always much easier to execute the cheeses than it is to hold them. Thats why they are doing them. Just go 12 pool macro every game and you would never have any problems with the flower build lol. In fact 12 pool macro counters like every freaking thing a protoss could do early game. its not execptionally hard to deal with flower build if you actually scout. but since zergs dont actually fear anything in early game they neglect scouting and yes, then you would lose against flower build.
I mean its kinda like zerg. GGWP you are able to build queens. Cool. Gj mate for your masters badge. What is macro zerg other than sitting there and defend until you have your 90 drones and a move around?
See? i can also oversimplify things.
Not all observations are “crying,” just like yours, actually. It’s just a comment.
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1st) You are absolutely right, scouting and a safe opener are the wise man’s way of playing. When I began I went exclusively hatch first because that’s what I saw all the good players were doing, and “macro” openers are le good, but since then I’ve matured and realized that not only does the quality of my games rise exponentially when I don’t instantly lose to cannon rushes and rax proxy, I can also leverage the early lings to put some pressure on and delay my opponent’s expand. Plus it’s good to be controlling units out on the map before the 7 minute mark. In ZvP I still go 16 hatch cause I feel like 12pool really puts me behind and tosses don’t cheese that often. In TvZ however I go exclusively gas pool hatch and it works out great.
Wish I could hold cannon rushes with ravagers like Serral, that’s a while away still I fear.
2nd) I wasn’t making fun of how easy of a time protoss has at beating me, but the opposite, that none of them bother to hold timing attacks.
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