Invincibiilty is dumb in RTS

Okay, I gotta agree with that, invincibility or “nigh invincibility” gimmicks dont’ belong in RTS.

Like remove that from protoss, and give them Artanis Co-op research for “continuously regenerating shields” instead (subject to some balancing).

This way protoss unit swoudl be about 1 hit stronger in combat than they presently are, but wouldn’t have dumb invincibility gimmicks on the nexus, and continuous regenrating shields would mean probes would have 45 effective HP like SCV’s too…so then a stupid extra defense gimmick wouldn’t be needed in the first place…and a reaper nerf wouldn’t be needed, etc.

have you ever seen HU vs UD in Warcraft 3?

Invincible Paladin can solo the entire PRO GAMER UD army by the time he is level 5-7, depending on exactly how the game played out. Pro humans usually go MK first vs UD, and get pally third after BM for Mana Siphon, but I usually go Pally first vs UD, because…he’s invincible by level 4, so I figure I want the invincible hero first.

It’s not fair in Warcraft 3, and it’s not fair in SC2. At least Defensive Matrix in Broodwar was limited to under 200 damage (can’t remember the exact value, but it might have been 180 damage reduction, whatever the case) but Divine Shield in Warcraft 3 is up to 45 seconds of total invincibility, an dthe pally can kill several meat wagons or several fiends or pretty much infinite ghouls in 45 seconds.

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Battery overcharge is way less regeneration rate than say a group hug on a bunker. It’s strong, but not even remotely invincibility.

LUL paladin dps.

LUL opening divine shield.

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No, I didn’t say open Divine Shield.

I open Holy Light. I get Devotion Aura at level 2, and Divine Shield at level 3.

At level 4 I get Holy LIght 2, and at level 5 I get Holy Light 3 (for knights or Gryphons, it’s useless on footmen and rifles, but nobody actually trains Gryphons vs Undead because fiends beat them so badly, but anyway, I digress.)

You don’t need Divin Shield until you’re ready to engage your opponent.

SO level 1 Holy light 1
Level 2 Devotion aura 1
level 3 Divine Shield
Level 4 Holy Light 2
Level 5 Holy Light 3

Holy Light is insane DPS vs UD, and and two-shots Fiends, with Blood Mage Banish both Pally and MK do about the same DPS vs Fiends, the main unit UD uses in the middle game, and the pally is better than MK, because he can ckeep your own army alive, nad with Divin Shield he can charge into the UD army and kill Meat Wagons, so the UD can’t siege yoru expansion, and this lets you macor up a lot faster, so you don’t auto-lose when he tries to get Wyrms and Destroyers, so hopefully your nuking kills enough of the UD fiends and maybe nuke his first abomination to death if he tried that, and so then by the time it’s frost wyrm timing, you can do rigged crap and even nuke his wyrms, or do drops or run-bys of siege engines on his base to kill his gold mine nd stuff.

The alternative is to play Low economy, and mass Spell Breakers, because they are immune to UD nuke, and then you can nuke the UD, but he can’t nuke you.

The Pally has EXCELLENT DPS vs UD, because Holy Light has “appears on target” behavior and only costs 65 mana, while Death Coil costs 75 mana and has “flies to target” behavior.

So if UD goes Dk first eery time vs HU, then Hu should go Pally first every time, because Paladin is strictly beter than DK in the matchup. The paladin can kill the UD entire army, and there isn’t anything a Death Knight or LIch can do about it either.

by the way, I can hero solo the Insane UD AI in Warcraft 3: TFT using any hero on the hu Altar, or any tavern hero. I can actually do that as all 4 races, any one hero vs any race on insane difficulty.

The easiest two are Warden and Dark Ranger, in that order, and Pally is probably the hardest, because his physical attack isn’t that good, but his invincibility more than makes up for it., and something I didnt’ even realize, potion of invulnerability uses a different cooldown than the actual Divine Shield spell, so you can alternate potion of invulnerability and Divine Shield for ALMOST perpetual invincibility.

This is the exact same strategy Pro gamers use against UD, the only difference is I train the heros in the opposite order, because it makes more sense to train the INVICIBLE GUY WHO KEEPS YOUR ARMY ALIVE first.

the order of Brokenness in-game for heroes is this:

  1. Warden
    She’d be fair…if Night Elf didn’t have moon wells. With moon wells she can spam the hell out of fan o fknives and kill you ropponent’s entire army by herself, which is exactly what pro NE do these days, nad exactly what I do vs the Insane AI with her, and what I do to noobs when I still play.

  2. Paladin
    Because that whole, “He flat out never dies” thing and keeps your whole army alive perpetually thing is hard to deal with.

  3. Dark Ranger
    Because stealing your opponents units at level 6 means the opponent is on a 5 level clock, and if they don’t beat you before level 6, they flat out lose.

heres the equipment setup for the Hero Solo vs the Insane Ai, and it’s the same for every hero.

Circlet of Nobilty
Orb
Staff of Teleport
Boots of Speed
Potion of Healing
Potion of Invulnerability.

If you need to drink your potions, first thing you do is buy another one of each between engagements.

After several engagmeents, as any hero vs any race Insane AI, I get so high in hero levels It can’t compete, and I deplete its money and gradually kill it, usually level 9 or 10 by the time I destroy its entire base.

And yes, I can do that wth the Paladin too, but you need a hell of a lot of towers for defense to win the solo challgen with paladin, mor ethan other other hero, because his basic attack sucks pretty badly compared to other heroes, but that isn’t evne true vs UD, vs UD you just nuke the AI to death.

Oh yeah, Lich is a 4th place runner-up on Brokenness of heros.

1 lich vs Insane orc is surprisingly easy, didn’t even need a potion of invulnerability to win that, but I did drink a few healing potions all together, but pretty much just nuke, nuke, nuke, pull some of my own acolytes and Dark Ritual them for free mana (it’s more cost-effective than buying mana potions) and nuke some more and before I knw it I control map and have 3 UD bases with 10 towers per base, and the AI is out of money and trying to start a 3rd, and I kill camp its workers and kill all its units that it sends to try to figh tth elich.

pretty easily done.

So lich gets “Runner up” as the 4th most broken hero in Warcraft 3.

And Undead has the best Orb too, because -5 armor is a 29% difference in effectiveness, and “negative armor” applies bonus damage, so for example “engative five armor” is a 29% bonus damage, just as say 6 armor minus 5 armor workers out to 29% bonus damage.

So Orb of Corruption is completely broken as all heck in a situation where you have an entire army focus firing a single unit, such as a level 9 creep camp on Gnoll Wood, which even a level 9 Creep melts like butter to an Orb of Corruption, but other race’s orbs can’t do that.

Group hug is limited by surface area, causes lost mining time AND costs resources to do, makes workers vulnerable

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This isn’t wc3 and there’s no invincible units. Try actually playing LOTV first before assuming it’s like hots. You frequently mention you haven’t played since hots.

If you still can type this much, then you can certainly play the game.

It’s close enough to invincible as makes no difference. It about like Dfefensive Matrx, it’s situationally too good. Like you know, defensive matrix on your lily’s arbiter and suicide the arbiter though the noob opponet’s 3 deep turret wal, and recall ~24 goons or evne 24 mind controlled siete tanks, and GG ono RE Terran opponent “llearn to play” becauseobviously defensive matrix on ARbiter is “fair”.

It’s really sad they never instituted the team ladder for BW Remastered like they said they would. Makes it near impossible to get games. With 80 people on the east coast server.

Sad how ded it is. Now this is back in 2017 as well. Fours year later, still no team ladder. It’s a shame. Can’t even get a good game of big game hunters going unless you know the password to join the 1 custom game in the lobbies.

Man, typing even a ong post is not the same as hand-eye coordination to play agains ta code S player, and not the same as in-game concentration. In case you haven’t noticed, I make a LOT OF TYPOS, even though I have genius level vocabulary.

I played LotV for about half of the first season and got sick of it. Actually blizzard has changed so much crap in the gaem since then that it’s not even the same Void that ws released, but that’s beside the poin.

They removed Point Defense Drone from Terran because it was broken as hell invinbicbility for your entire army. Then they put lalmost the exact same abiility on the nexus, they just changed the name and grpahics and sound effects, but basically you a temprorary invibibility shield and it costs you NOTHING to do that, becaue it’s built in free on the nexus an protoss doesn’t pay minerals for their economy fixer, it’s built in free on the nexus.

I thought blizzard one tie admitted, at the end of HotS, that a 2000 HP static dfense was a bade ideal, and removed over charge from the nexus, but now they’v eput a broken (albeit purely defensive) abiity back on the nexus.

protoss already has the best units, cost for cost, so they don’t need shiled overcharge, just the regular shiled batteries alone is goo denough.

And Teran reapers don’t need anerf. Zerg just need sfaster roaches, and protoss just needs faster stalkers. You realize Gas is th elmitin gresource ina reaper rush, but protoss talkers cost the same amount of gas as reapers, and they have the exat same mineral/gas ratio of a fresh base of resources, so you can literaly train 1 staker per reaper unl ttthe T realizes he’s an idiot and rage quits, because if he invested in 3 rax reaper and didn’t hose the hell out of the Zerg or Protoss economy, then the Terran is hopelessly behind at that point, and the other player, beit zerg or protoss, get sa free win.

All-in rushes are like that, there’s usually a counter to an all-in rush, and when your rush is hard-countered hard enough, yo ulfat out lose the game.

You COULD balance protoss by removing all of their macro mechanics, and just giving them “probe power” broodwar style an devne more powerful units, but that would be sort of boring to watch compared to warp-ins and teleportation mechanics, and shilds going off saving them and such.

But if you REALLY wanted protoss to play like a BW deathball in lage tame, remove Warp-in and chrono boost, and give Carriers 3 rmor instead of 2, and buff stalkers somehow, and then Protoss would just omnitech carriers every game after 6 colossi, like in Broodwar.

Pepole forget that th eSCe Carrior is a macro mechanic, it’s 30 seconds faster than the BW carrier, and the interceptors are FREE, and it starts with 4 interceptors already in the bay. In brodwar you had to pay 200 minerals to get all 8 interceptor. So you are practically BAITED into making 6 Carriers in SC2 vs Terran, because you literally save 1200 minerals by making 56 carriers 9eventually not just right away, you need colossi and HT firt).

Anyway, they don’t need shield overcharges. It’s really dumb.

Something lke “continuous shild regen” from Broodwar WTH th efast non-combat regen too, if they did that, th eprotoss units would be on average 1 hit tougher compared to the current build, and then they could just remove all the silly teleportation mechanics and chrono boost, and protoss “macro mechanic” would be “our tech tree is just flat out better than yours, so we dare you to let us get to 160 supply.”

That’ show broodwar was, and nobody even complained about it. When the P got 160 supply, with A+ composition anyway, he’d need to be retarded to lose.

Like no, you can’t just mass carriers or stalkers or something and expect to win, but I did say OMNITECH beats Terran, not mass stalkers or mass carriers or mass colossi or whatever. Omnitech means you are reasearching the entire tech tree and making a few of every unit, as required by the situation, and that means the protoss DESERVES to beat a terran who is just massing marines and marauders the hwol egame like a 2 cent public noob iwould in Broodwar.

But anything can be made to be “fair” if you definie “fair” as 50 percent wins/losses same league vs same league, you can just add or remove cooldown times or train times, or add regenerating shields, or whatever, and work one point at a time on any given stat, and make ANYTHING “close enough to balanced as makes no difference”.

So at some point, when blizzard stats show the game I mostly balanced, people need ot hush.

But I don’t like invicinbility gimmicks, like Point Defense Drone or the Shiled overcharge, becasuse it’s stupid, it allows a player who otherwise would lose to extend the game and win even if he’s anot playing well.

I taught the WoL terrans how to play offensively with PDD, back in the day, and told them, “Look, get the fastst possible raven with 100 energy, and go attack the protoss and collect free wins. His stalkers are useless for the next 20 attacks, and you can kill half his army before he disables the PDD.”

So some gous terran tried what I said, and went and won like 10 consecutive TvP as Terran using 1 Raven rushes, just like I said, and you could literally kill the protoss entire army and not even lose a unit.

I used to do that to people in “Small Free For all” with PDD, and kill their entire base with 6 banshees and 6 ravens, and I have my army back defending my bases, nad just harass the opponents to death with banshees, then when they build static defense to try to stop my banshee harass, I get ravens for PDD (back then) an d PDD in sight radius of their static, and focus fire their cannons or turrets with my banshees, and then just continue attacking until they rage quic.

then, the last player let in the game (let’s say its protoss with a stalker composition) I had so many Ravens tanks and thors, I PDD between our armies and press the map, and wipe out his enrie army and los tnothing.

So PDD was broken as hell when it was in the game, almost as broken as the original HotS Swarm Host.

And shield Overcharge has pretty much the same effect as PDD, but the technical details of the ability are a bit different. It’s giving you a couple hundred effective HP on everything in sight radius…which is EXACTLY what PDD did, vs Stalkers it worked out to 240 effective HP per PDD, vs Hydralisk it worked out ot a slightly different effective HP bonus, but you get th epoint, dpends on what units weapon it is blocked. Vs photon cannons it’s actually 400 effective HP bonus.

Anyway, it’s a stupid ability, going back ot the original “Time Bomb” on the Mothership in WoL pre-alpha, blizzard has literally had like I think 4 versions of a “nigh invincibility” gimmick in the game so far, and for some reason they are convinced it’s a good idea to do that.

So it’s not “literally” invincible, but it’s close enough as makes no difference.

yes, that’s right, they had a weaker time bomb on the MSC, so that’s a total of 4 “nigh invincible” gimmicks that have been in the game at one point or another.

And again, for some reason blizzard thinks that’ sstill a good design, even though just a few years ago they totally redesigned the Raven because they admitted inability gimimcks wdidnt belong in the game, but now they’v eforgotten their ow nadmission and put what is “fefectively” a very similar ability in the game.

Why?

as I said elsewhere, insanity has been defined as “doing the same thing and expecting a different result.”

So they had multiople versions of Time Bomb, at least two version of it anyway, and 2 or 3 version of PDD, and now shield overcharge, and the EFFECTIVE hp BENEFIT is similar for all those abilities, it give syou " a couple hundred effective HP" when you use it…and in the cae of Protoss, it literally cost them nothing to do it, it was given to them for free at the start of the game, which is absolutely retarded and totally unneeded.

I’l play with you, assuming I can log back on to bnet with SC1.

My macro is going to suck balls, worse than a public noob actually, so I’m just warning you, but my builds and tactics will still win most games anyway, we can just do something like the TP vs XX strategy I mentioned previously, and try to win every game on one base.

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Lmao wc3 balance lmao

Not even Immortal Shields is invenciblility bro, sc2 is a good rts.

But stasis ward makes the enemy invincible! :crazy_face:

Yeah battery overcharge isn’t close to invincibility for a couple reasons:

  1. The battery can be targeted down in most situations and SBs go down pretty quickly
  2. The attacking army, in the worst scenario, can retreat. BO only helps if the protoss army is near the battery overcharged. In a standard scenario you just rotate to another base though that’s very map/situation dependent
  3. You can out DPS BO, you can’t out DPS invincibility.
  4. BO only targets one unit at a time, meaning spread out damage still works fine. This is particularly useful if there are multiple batteries because the Overcharged battery doesn’t override an existing Shield Battery charge; meaning if another SB is targeting a unit that is taking damage, the Overcharged one can’t take over until the energy in the other battery is dry

SB OC is no doubt good at helping hold against pushes, but its limitations allow for many options that invincibility doesn’t. To say it’s functionally the same is, to quote you, “arguing in bad faith”.

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LOTV immortals are better than HOTS, if you test them vs hydras, or like if you have to move to 20 lurkers, immortals will just walk over at that period they regen!