Currently it gives +150% damage (description lies) and 50% damage reduction, at the cost of +25% gear cost and no ultimate gear.
Pretty much everyone agrees it’s brokenly strong. How would you bring it down to an acceptable level?
My initial thought was start the game with +50% damage and 20% damage reduction, then add +20% damage and +6% damage reduction per weapons and armor upgrade respectively. The idea being max tychus is identical to how he is now (which can sometimes struggle late-game) while early-game tychus is tuned down (but still quite strong).
I was thinking make the bonus depend on the number of Outlaws out of range… But If we went with yours, I’d just make it +30% damage given and -10% damage taken per upgrade (for Outlaws out of range of others)
ie no bonus to start with (and no penalty)… but you build up the bonus as you build up the penalty.
I would keep the damage reduction as is, it’s pretty trivial as normal Tychus to have an outlaw with Tychus as soon as he spawns if desired after all.
Drop the damage increase to 0, but introduce a new “Inspiration” system. Have it scale based on each Outlaw’s class, so Guns gain through killing enemies, Muscle gain through taking damage, Fixers gain through using their abilities.
As the Inspiration is gained, it will increase the damage of other Outlaws deployed that are under the effect of Better Off Alone.
Basically nerf early game Lone Wolf and emphasize the ability to tackle multiple areas at once, which I feel should be the primary benefit of the Talent. Though it’s a pretty big change compared to what you two’ve thought of.
I think we should buff the ones that are underperforming. I know some are against power creep but it’s the lesser evil.
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I guess I’m in the minority when I say I think it’s fine as is. Ultimate gears add so much, so having their damage output be kinda busted in exchange, in the name of still being fun to play, seems balanced to me. Plus, bad Tychus players will still get their outlaws killed. Though I’d say reduce or remove the damage reduction (or actually have them take extra damage, like a berserker debuff) and give them even more damage output. Total glass cannon style so you actually have to micro to keep them alive. And if you’re good at that, they’ll melt everything. That actually sounds really entertaining.
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This completely eliminates Tychus being buffed right out the gate when he’s your only unit. That doesn’t sound very fun and is basically just vanilla Tychus until you have a big squad, which doesn’t even happen in some games. Plus, it makes it pointless to run a 2-3 outlaw build because the bonus doesn’t outweigh the penalty, which is what this prestige is designed around, getting more bang for your buck per outlaw.
If the prestige is only worthwhile in longer games that allow for more upgrades and outlaws, what’s the incentive? I’d rather just go with vanilla and have my ultimate gears. Sometimes I like to rush to the ultimate for one outlaw early on. Your suggestion would both strip me of that and making use of the prestige in the early game, so it’s just a loss/loss.
Any changes to lone wolf need to be VERY carefully done so as to not destroy its premise.
As it stands being ‘alone’… the dmg reduction of 50% MUST stay… otherwise heroes other than tychus/nux will be completely overshadowed (due to their wave clear ability)… and even tychus/nux can struggle or fail to target properly where even the current 50% DR won’t save you.
That being said; the dmg buff has room for adjustment… but note; I say ADJUSTMENT, not outright nerfing.
Right now a lone wolf tychus in the first 10 minutes is SUPER strong compared to almost any other commander bar max level+mastery kerrigan.
But after 10 minutes? after/at 15minutes? The power significantly falls away…
Playing Cradle of Death I found that the true power of Lone Wolf was the ability to leave Nux at home to kill the constant attack waves or ‘they’re targeting your truck’(But actually going to your base!) waves… but the pushing power of tychus alone even with my partner was not nearly as strong as a normal tychus commander (all 4-5 heroes together)
So I do support time gradient or perhaps ‘upgrade’ gradient linked dmg boosts.
There are of course other options;
- Link the dmg boost to how far away tychus is from his Bar
- Link the dmg boost to how far away he is from other heroes/mercs (of tychus’s bar) – this could also be linked to how many are hired at all as well.
Personal thoughts; Of all the Prestiges, Lone wolf Tychus and Scourge Queen Zagara are by far my favorite. They actually felt like a gameplay change that was an improvement for my preferred playstyle.
MAYBE no nerfs are needed to the ‘advantage’ but the ‘disadvantage’ needs to be more pronounced… more expensive gear? Causes gear upgrades to take 2 minutes to research? Movement speed slow? etc etc.
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I agree. It’s one of the few prestiges that actually WILDLY changes gameplay style and offers something new, and yet it seems to be the one people want nerfed the most without appreciating how unique it is in the lineup.
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My ally was playing lone wolf with Nikara following Tychus, so there was no “broken” element 
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That’s pretty hilarious, but also brings up an interesting point. Lone Wolf makes one outlaw pick completely pointless, so that’s another downside in exchange for all that raw power. Not that Nikara was particularly exciting to use in the first place (awesome with P1 though).
Not sure I agree @Fiddle,
I still got Nikara as a general ‘save me’ (before getting the level with 3 Medivacs//mastery)
Post Mastery/maxxed out again; Nikara is a safe hero to stick with your Allies army as long as it isn’t near you.
Several commanders have craptastic healing and really benefit from Nikara//hitting her aoe heal every so often.
Just scale it all back by like 10-20%.
The only ACTUAL drawback to Lone Wolf is no ultimate gear. Tychus can still hang out in a 5 man and not get the bonuses if he wants.
You can do that regardless of the prestige though. You can also have her accompany your outlaws and then back her off when an attack wave comes. But as far as benefiting from it, she’s useless. Also, if you use medivacs smartly, you pretty much never need her. If you run Tychus along with your ally at low level, the both of you will just demolish everything that comes your way and he doesn’t need healing.
Having a Lone Wolf Tychus ally just takes the fun out of any map. He was already close to being broken before, but this is just icing on the cake.
At the same time it feels immensely unsatisyfing to have a single unit this strong.
That is like… Alarak with a very strong Empower Me. But for a strong empowerment, you need supply in form an army. And it’s not permanent. You have to work for it. I hope you know what I mean. That’s why I don’t really care about Lone Wolf being unique. His playstyle reminds me more of DotA or HotS than a strategy game like Starcraft.
Tychus’ kit was already dangerously strong. Lone Wolf makes it much worse. Again, for a commander who has to maintain an army in the classic sense of Starcraft, it feels so unsatisfying watching a Lone Wolf. Hell, even regular Tychus allies in Brutal+ annoyed me because it’s so easy mode (well, it requires an active playstyle and just not A-move, which is a plus, but still) compared to others. He has everything on demand. Heal, mobility, aoe damage, single target burst, mind control, anti air, list continues.
I understand some players desire less macro. Tychus introduced a trend which sadly continued with Zeratul, where you don’t even have pylon power fields and supply anymore. Again, I understand not wanting to put up with base management all the time. Really. I just wrote all of this to tell you the story from the view of an ally like me, who likes the ‘oldschool base/army management’. It’s really unsatisfying. Zeratul-only cannon-spammers also fall into that category.
I give you credit for acknowledging that Lone Wolf is kinda broken. Since I only levelled Tychus to 15 for completion’s sake - and to support the dev team - I leave the decision how to address this up to you.
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If every commander was the same pacing of macro play, I would have gotten bored a long time ago. Commanders like Tychus are the change of pace I need now and then to take a break from all of that.
The maps in the SC1 and 2 campaigns that were focused on using a hero with limited units were some of my favorites, so I’m glad to have at least one commander who somewhat resembles that to mix things up. Tychus is only “borderline broken” when someone knows how to play him, like so many other commanders. The difference is he’s that way while playing actively and not deathballing a massive army and taking your hand off the wheel because you’ve macroed yourself into an unstoppable machine.
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Tbh. prestige # 1 is as strong, if not even stronger - 35% shorter CD on grenade, storm, turrets … while the only downside is delayed outlaws, forcing you to prioritize upgrading the existing ones, which you probably should do anyway.
But I like it, as it rewards micro, as opposed to just attackmoving
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It also increases the costs by 50% for… recruitment? I think.
Im not a fan of it because most waves are deleted in 1 single combination of abilities… and you never need your next ‘ability’ 35% faster… so why would I want to pay more for effectively the same thing I already have.
I’ll admit that some maps I’m sure its at least useful on… and for those of you who love Sirius turret spam I bet its a godsend.
I hate sirius. I avoid getting him… so that could be my bias against this prestige.
yes, 50% of increase in cost, but that’s manageable.
I can almost always use faster next ability (except for revitalizer), because I am not sitting at home waiting for next wave, but always pushing, if possible.
And I can leave turrets (35% more of them :D) to destroy any remaining buildings
And it was quite useful in the previous brutation where fireworks kept destroying revitalizers and warhound turrets…
But I wasn’t max level and so didn’t have Nuxes cooldown reduction gear, so maybe having that together with the prestige might be overkill …
But I agree for some people the increased cost might not feel worth it
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you do understand that dehaka is even better at one man armying the whole map. but for some reason people dont complain as much about that. thats because tychuses lone wolf is the new thing i promise you that if you wait a 2-3 months youll just wont care about it anymore.
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Imo the first gear I was really hoping to use with a vega mc build, but the higher costs and times is just way too janky until you get first one on the house and normal tychus is fine anyways. Just like how you point out Tychus is fine ending fights with grenades and some c4s, his normal weakness is without blaze his burst aoe and single target objective is great, his 151 DoN building dps was questionable. You enter fights and you rarely if ever need the extra charges while being bilked 1500 for the first outlaw pre 1st discount, and aside from rattle snake and Sirius you have to pay like 2000-2500 minerals in the mid to early game while delaying outlaws. When you rarely even have money to buy Nux or Vega as a 5th. You typically only get enough money to ult gear 2-3 outlaws before and a lot of strats still only do 4 high or need outlaws good on their own.
Imo it’s a neat idea but both cost and outlaw time is a bit egregious. The problem with outlaw availability is that it’s fun, but you’re better off going tall and strong rather than wide and weak. I feel it’s pidgeonholed here, it honestly could do with the removal of outlaw time but keep a cost, or maybe remove the bonus cost but make icte triggers not available or the tri outlaw stuff instead as drawback.