How to punish early pools in PVZ? Help please

General Discussion
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Hello,
I’m a high diamond, low masters player. I simply don’t know how to punish early pools. I can hold the initial pressure without any damage but the zerg always seems to end up ahead if they just expand to 3 hatcheries and defend with mass-roach ravager.

Can someone give me a general guide on how to follow up and punish a zerg that went pool first? I don’t need instructions on how to survive as 12-16 pool without damage or whether to expand vs them or not (fast expand vs 16 pool, 2 gate with 2 zealot for 12-14 pool). I just need to know the maximal follow up strategy so that the zerg doesn’t end up on 3 bases up 10 drones by the time i get my natural saturated.

Do I play triple oracle? Do I try to go adepts? Just turtle and try skytoss?

Replays or VODs would be appreciated.

Thanks

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I dislike playing vs pool first builds at weird times, just because… you get so little practice vs them that you don’t even know what kinda timings you need or order of things. 100% of the time I end up with way too much chrono energy, just because I’m like :man_shrugging:

So, I can only give an anecdotal for vs 12 pool. When I came back from a break, I lost every game vs Zerg, because… apparently 12 pooling became the meta, and apparently my play was too sub optimal vs it to not get behind.

Since then, I’ve learned the necessity of pylon scouting vs Zerg. So, upon scouting the pool first (12-13 pool), I’m able to make a forge ASAP (after having a gateway). I just completely wall off with a pylon in the gap, make a cannon and a cyber. Don’t make any units before expanding. Then I just go stargate -> adept and go into my regular sky toss + disruptors.

Nothing feels like it “punishes pool first,” which is why it became the meta. Success appears to merely be not falling behind. With the way described, I now win nearly 100% of games vs said build. At the least, I’m not losing any games due to falling behind early.

If someone were wild enough to go 12 pool and then only make drones? Let’s please not think about such a horror.

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You can’t genuinely punish a 12 pool. I’ve tried it at the low M1 level (~4800-5k mmr). Forget the fact that whenever I try to do a counter proxy, people always send a ling/overlord straight to it for a second and instantly deny it. In general, the early lings are designed to pressure you. If they don’t lose it, they probably have like 6 lings to scout around the map. They have the overlord in your natural to scout your transition. There is literally nothing you can do as an immediate follow up to genuinely punish your opponent. I have tried 4 gate follow ups, 2 base zealot/immortal allins, adepts. No follow up pressure tactic works.

This leaves you with only one option: to go stargate and macro it out. This will not only keep you safe from any of their immediate follow ups, but it also allows you to macro back into the game. There are a lot of whiners on here that complain about the stargate opener, but honestly, what else can you do as Protoss? Stargate openers are the only optimal strategy in the game (except for maybe DTs, but that becomes obvious when your second gateway unit is a stalker to deny the scouting overlord).

Playa basically gives the best answer - turtle macro and skytoss. This is the only ideal follow up solution, especially at the lower level. All the whining from Z/T has led up to this point: one macro strategy per race and that’s it. In the case of PvZ, it is in the favor of Protoss to utilize the stargate opener.

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Thanks. That makes sense. Is it possible to get a replay from one of you guys as a general guide?

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Sure. My last P vs Z was actually vs 12 pool, not that it’s uncommon these days. Last P vs Z: h ttps://drop.sc/replay/19521925

There is an MMR difference, but this is how most games look like. I’ve used this exact style, with no deviation (except 12 pool defense part) for like 4+ years running. Way before any void ray buffs. As solid as always, even if on the “lame spectrum.”

Edit. Please forgive me. I played against Lowko a week ago and he opened 12 pool. We’re all human. We love being able to say “I know that guy!” That 2k MMR boost. Giving a face to the otherwise faceless.

h ttps://drop.sc/replay/19522033

Not even the powers of being a streamer were enough. Lucked out this time.

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2 gate adept. You wall in faster and the adepts absolutely eviscerate slow lings. They then kill so many drones it’s completely unrecoverable.

If the early pool includes gas, it’s best to go 1 gate into your natural and build a nexus. The faster cyber core can allow for a faster oracle. Since the zerg went for speed on 1 base, his natural will be super delayed and he will have 1 queen. You can just sack the oracle and kill a bazillion drones. You need to wall off ASAP. Once walled off the game is over.

Be sure to probe scout after making your first pylon and verify he has a natural. If not then you go double gate adept. If it has a gas you go 1 gate into stargate.

Another option is a forge expand. You can choose to wall off instead of starting a nexus, and 1 cannon thwarts all forms of 1 base aggression except for 1 base ravager which you can scout for. You can hide a probe on the map and cannon his natural while he is trying to bust you. Also if you go 2 gate and it’s ravagers you just chronoboost stalkers and it’s a free win. If you went stargate an oracle is a free win as well.

Basically there is no excuse to lose to 1 base zerg. You have a myriad of options and the zerg has none.

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This is false on so many fronts

This is one option that does put a respectable bit of pressure on the Zerg at the start of the game. Of course, if you get no damage and make more adepts than needed, it becomes a waste once they are capable of easily deflecting adepts.

Literally the only scoutable 1 gas I can think of so early into the game is if there is either a 13/12 or a very fast roach follow up. In both cases you should do the exact opposite of what you’ve suggested.

Gate/cyber/forge walls are very safe, but it may set you behind in certain senses. It’s a valid hold, but comes down to the preference of the individual on what the follow up is. I suppose if stargate/fast skytoss is the move, this is a fair choice.

Counter cannon rushing someone who is ravager rushing you is a silly and ridiculous risk that relies on all your opponent’s ravagers being on your side of the map. This is just a ridiculous suggestion on so many fronts.

This is not a free win. As a matter of fact, it’s a hard hold unless you have:

This. However, there is a lot more to this dynamic than just a “free win.”
If 12 pool openers were so devastating to a Zerg, they wouldn’t be doing it frequently… It’s a valid skill check on your opponent that doesn’t really set you behind. You are being way too dramatic about what options Protoss has against it (which is few).

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12 gas 11 pool, 13 gas 12 pool, 12 pool 14 gas, 12 pool 16 gas, 14 pool 14 gas 14 gas, 14 gas 14 pool, 16 gas 16 pool, 16 pool 16 gas, just to name a few, each one RADICALLY different from any other.

Basically there is a spectrum of pool and gas timings for a spectrum of timings when lings first pop & when speed finishes, each one with a spectrum of commitment levels. For example, 12 pool 11 gas is a slow ling baneling allin and highly committed while 16 pool 16 gas allows for a decent timed natural while having a much faster scout denial (for fast third or fast lair followups), while 14 gas 14 pool is a middle of the road build that can be anything from a hard speedling baneling allin to a light pressure and expand build.

12 pool 11 gas aims to counter a protoss who doesn’t probe scout. You wait for his first adept to leave and you walk banelings into his main.

12 gas 11 pool is the same but with zergling speed, which allows for quicker reinforcements on large maps and a better ability to catch the first adept.

Both these hit before the first oracle pops.

14 gas 14 pool is an extreme hard counter to all forms of Protoss 1 base aggression, such as proxies or cannon rushes. It can also be a hard ling bane allin, a 2 base fast lair, or a fast third. The baneling allin variety can be held by a fast oracle since it is slower. Best vs adept, dt or robo openers.

14 pool 14 gas 14 gas is a 1 base ravager allin. Basically it kills Protoss who forge expand and who don’t probe scout (rare), cannon rushes or proxy gates. VS a typical macro Protoss it sucks since making stalkers off 2 gates or rushing a void off a stargate is plenty to stop it in its tracks. Making a robo, immortal then warp prism also hard counters it.

13 gas 12 pool is either a slow ling baneling allin or a speedling expand. You get lings out significantly slower than a 12 pool but the zergling speed can catch players off guard. So when the Protoss has a second zealot and gets more pushy you can surprise him, kill his zealots and bust his entire wall down while expanding on the back of it. This will beat lower skill Protoss who can’t recognize the timing difference of when the lings arrive.

I could go on for days, and these are just basic 1 base zerg openers.

Etc etc.

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Would be easy to scout and counter all of this but unlike zerg, protoss doesnt have an ovi in the natural :frowning:

There is a reason why lambo recommends 12 Pool (early Pool in general) for Players below 6k. The Initial lings arent game losing but the following up is pretty ugly because You wont have enough scout options. Early Pool ecaxtly denies that/makes it a lot harder.

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That’s why Protoss always probe scout after making their first pylon. Sometimes they will time it to see when the natural’s hatchery goes down. But for 99% of people simply scouting after your first pylon covers all scenarios except 4 base maps that allow for close spawns (you scout immediately or blindly open 2 gateway or blindly make a zealot from your first gateway).

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I mean actually no. It doesnt counter that much tbh since Players below 5.5k wont even know the Proper builds. You cant know what happens next because its too unpredictable. The only things You can really scout is gas and if a natural wants to be built. You surely wont want to lose against roach ravager push like parting did vs some m3 newb.

But yeah its enough for most cases. But still…early Aggression is a valid reason to lose vs zerg as its putting protoss under a lot of pressure while not actually risking that much.

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Nope, it’s not. Protoss has 10 paths to victory for every 1 that zerg has if the zerg decides to open 1 base. If a Protoss losses to these builds, he made multiple massive mistakes. Since it’s the early game, aka the simplest, most relaxed, and easiest part of the game to both play and understand, there really isn’t any excuse, at all, whatsoever, to not know how to play it. If a Protoss can’t navigate to any of his myriads of early game win conditions, in the easiest phase of the game, then it’s a monstrous skill problem.

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12 pool is somewhat common because Lambo’s popularized it,made a guide on YT and said is not exactly an all in and it was a legit strat. It works well if P is unptepared

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No. Thats purely a zerg view. I mean look at bly. That guy didnt say im gonna l2p after batteries and voids got Buffed (he actually rather hates the voids) he simply Said hes going to Invent much more aggressive builds. You see, the Sole reason why protoss Walls is because they dont stand a chance in an even fight in early game. Every protoss fears early game/early Pool because its a very shaky path between playing too safe and delaying crucial tech or being behind on eco or being too unsafe and lose against some bs. As long as there are Players like bly and noregret Who can take out the best Players in the world by a Minimum of effort and micro with dirty early game Play You cant really say that its not a valid reason to lose vs early game zerg. The best Players in the world struggle with it so its ok if i am struggeling with it.

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Fascinating, and let’s get on the same page - Protoss has to understand and react to ALL these different variations? And perhaps, all reactions are best handled by stargate? I think you are mistaking races here then - Protoss has no options while Zerg has a myriad.

I’m just going to tell you right now that half of all the openers/variations you have listed are inefficient variations of the other. Ex: 14 gas 14 pool, 12 gas 11 pool, couple others, these are all the same variation of 13/12 but less efficient in their own ways.

You can scout all early pool variations with a probe. What becomes difficult is figuring out what the follow up is. Zerg can’t really see anything until ~2 minutes into the game when the overlord reaches the opp natural (and because they never drone scout), but they are fully capable of scouting the follow up with the overlord. That’s the true difference.

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Yes. Thats what i elaborated and the op mentioned. Holding the Initial push is not that hard but holding it efficiently and reacting to what happens next is difficult because You cant really scout as You cannt afford to lose units for scouting and they are often intercepted anyway. While also zerg btw has more or less full Vision what You got and what You are up to because hes chilling on the pervi spot. Thats what makes pvz early game so difficult. One Player doesnt know whats up and one Player has map Control and full Vision.

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Yeah. I mean, if under prepared, the game can just instantly end. But, as sentry alluded to, the problem is often being over prepared, to the point you fall behind in eco or tech. You can lose either way. Fine line. It’s definitely more calming and comfortable to just play vs the standard play.

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Now for that Cobra has a sentry behind the wall that is used for scouting (not the initial one) and for stopping bane-busts in early game. I have seen too many games lost from protoss of all levels just because they did not had a Sentry and an early SB behind the wall.

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-Remove the discount for hatch creation.
-Remove zerg supply exploit.

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Many depends on zealot/ ling dance.
I was surprised by 2x oracle killing 16 drones and just ignoring queen…
or just 2 base gate push with WP… blink stalker or adapt.

But in most cases 90Apm Boss Toss move…Stargate.