I don’t wanna judge how you play but let me remind you that all factions have some sort of 20 second window for timing attacks. If you get crushed by them so definitively then maybe you be you have bad luck or inadequate scouting in the early. I have seen many pro terrans and zergs shrug off stalker timing attacks like nothing with ravagers and seiged tanks. Pro toss on the otherhand, repeatedly seen get stomped by byuns, clems , ghumihos when they take 20 or more marines and pull the boys or, when dark and serral does the german taxi build or proxy hatch into fast zergling rush.
A mechanic that is a free benefit and comes on all of your units is definitely not a trade-off.
You shouldn’t respond to anyone whose posts you are unwilling to read.
I would say it is when terran bio can be healed by medievacs and mech by SCVs. Same for zerg who it all bio self heal and queens. Infact, protoss has the worst trade off since only shields regenerate, constitute a small portion of the total health of a unit and can only restored by a stationary building.
PvZ is unholy nightmare for protoss no matter the league i member being gold nd getting destroyed 80% my v Z games and lotv made it 100 times worse.
PvT was P favoured till lotv and then they ultra super mega buffed Terran into stars now terran is new zerg and zerg is still zerg
What i would like to see is Zerg nerf Terran MEGA nerf and protoss multiple buffs and from early to late game
Each of those require some upfront investment Medivacs, SCVs and resources to spend, etc). The equivalent for Protoss would be Shield Batteries, not the free passive shield regeneration.
The passive regeneration itself has no downsides, except perhaps that units have to be balanced with it in mind–Hence, Asamu’s idea that putting the regeneration behind an upgrade may enable Protoss units to be cheaper or stronger in terms of pure stats.
Again, the equivalent to Queens Transfuse would be Shield Batteries, not passive regeneration.
The passive regeneration of Zerg is usually much worse than shield regeneration, and most Zerg units tend to be squishier or otherwise easier to kill.
We are talking about balancing the game. Not terran activism to make protoss “pay” for perceived slights.
I read and responded to plenty. If people cant make coherent, concise arguments it is not my job to do it for them.
Your inability to understand an argument made doesn’t mean it’s not coherent.
No, what you think we’re talking about is making protoss “pay” for perceived slights.
In reality you have no actual understanding of how the balancing process would actually work, especially when talking about critical aspects of a unit or race. You have made that unequivocally clear throughout this discussion with both Terranic and Asamu.
This thread is about how to balance protoss at the highest level so that they can compete with terran and zerg. It is not a terran struggle session for you air your grievances because you dont like how protoss work.
Nice barcode you have there.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
I don’t like how Protoss works. I think they’re far to fimsy in certain stages of the game and are overly reliant on cheeses and generally gimmicky play even at the highest level. I would like to see them be far more stable than they are, but the reality is when you’re talking about major parts of their design such as Warp-gate and Shield Regen, you cannot feasibly change them without first changing something else to ensure that they then don’t become obscenely powerful.
You asked this - very silly question - earlier. The question shouldn’t be “Does it still negate Defender’s advantage” - the ability to warp in gateway units in your enemy’s base, or just outside their base with little to no travel time in-between means that yes, it does still negate defender’s advantage.
Defender’s advantage is what is provided to your opponent when you have to cross the map.
It is, to put it plain and simple, the advantage of having your production on your side of the map, meaning it takes you less time to reinforce your units than it does your opponent since you have significantly less travel time to reach the combat zone.
Nydus worms, Recall, Tactical Jump and Warpgate all in some way, shape or form, negate Defender’s Advantage by completely removing the travel time to or from the combat zone. Frankly speaking I have issues with all of these for one reason or another.
Even Creep does this to a much lesser extent by reducing the time it takes for Zerg units to cross the map while also providing a much more significant defender’s advantage as creep spreads further across the map.
What the question should be is; “How would you change protoss in such a way that they can still keep warp-gate, be made stronger and more robust early game and not have issues with (or at least significantly delay) the time in which it takes for Defender’s advantage to be negated?”
Frankly speaking, I like the idea behind Warp-gate. I actually think it’s a very interesting game-mechanic. My main issue with it though, is that it comes far to early into the game, and as a direct result gateway units suffer greatly because it comes online so early.
Delaying Warp-gate till say, Twilight research means you can put more power back into the units themselves since they now have a travel time that needs to be considered. More health for units, or faster attack speed, or cheaper cost or any number of other changes can be looked at as a direct result, and then further adding upgrades after warp-gate would make them far more robust and defensible.
You can change the shield regeneration rate to start regenerating shields earlier. You can change how quickly units produce. You can change literally any number of things because warp-gate would now come at a time where players can have tech in place to deal with units appearing in their base or on their side of the map rather than having to walk across, not to mention giving Protoss players further meaningful choice in how they tech as well. Do you delay warpgate until you can get blink? Charge? Other upgrades that might be implemented as a result? Or do you go for warp-gate first?
I’m not suggesting that I have all the answers, because I don’t nobody here does.
I want to see Protoss players succeed just as much as you do, if not more because it actually makes for an exciting game when all 3 races are consistently competitive with each other. Having a one or two race game makes it far more boring than having a 3 race game to watch and/or play.
I never talked about warpgate or regen, only to dispute your grievances. My entire premise is that gateway units need to be stronger to make early game protoss more stable so that we can remove the bs crutches everybody hates. Go read the op. You, and others, took this as an opportunity to advocate for your race and talk about how you dont like protoss. Not constructive at all.
It doesnt. Defenders advantage is when the defender has an extra cycle of units because of travel distance. If you put one race a cycle behind to compensate there is no defenders advantage. This is a very basic non-silly balancing concept. You should try to understand it.
I think you fail to understand that protoss even with the current shield is weak. What you and him are really suggesting is to put another unnecessary hurdle for early protoss when it should be either a straight buff for protoss or a nerf for terran and zerg to compensate. If the idea is just reducing 25 mineral cost on stalkers for better trades then do just that not that it would help when roaches are a lot cheaper and marauders do +20 vs stalkers and stalkers doing +18 vs marauders. There is nothing strong about stalkers and Gateway units and protoss units in general to dictate another nerf before a well deserved buff.
The travel distance in itself is the defender’s advantage because you can pick off reinforcements coming across the map as well. There’s multiple faucets of Defender’s advantage, rather than just “one race is a cycle behind”.
I read the OP. You’re correct, you didn’t talk about warpgate; however you DID say
Which a huge part of that reason is Warpgate in the first place. It’s not the only reason, but it is a huge part of it. You said you want to buff gateway units, but without looking at WHY they’re weak in the first place you can’t then take steps to make them stronger. That’s the point.
/Facepalm. Please try.
We finally agree.
They are concerned about all those protoss winning esl/gsl with proxy 2gate zealots and blink stalker micro.
I like to compare prism warpgate rush with nydus because they both negate travel distance.
50/50 Warpgate research
250+25 Warp prism (2supply = 25 minerals)
Total cost: 475/150
150+50/150 Nydus network
75/75 Nydus worm
I don’t see a huge difference between them. Although nydus being gas-heavy is a greater commitment, it allows queens to be used on the offense that doesn’t demand gas to produce. Warpgate is slightly superior due to less time between resource spending and the units deployed in-position, and there is much less time frame to stop a warp prism compared to a nydus intrusion.
I think warp gate units can be buffed by simply increasing the research cost of warpgate to 150/150 or even 200/200.
But they already need a buff. Why would you nerf them to pay for the buff? Are you going to buff them twice as hard to “pay” for the nerf?
Imagine you buff gateway units without nerfing blink, charge or glaives all-in. Even pro level players have difficulty defending them knowing what exactly is coming.
I think currently gateway units don’t need a buff. Protoss just need better anti-caster option for the late game. Early to midgame they are fine.
This is a thread about buffing protoss to make them viable at the pro levels. If you want to campaign for protoss nerfs, you should make a thread and do that.
I disagree with you and so does the first line of the proposed patch notes and the historical record of tournament winners over the past 8 years. To be fair the actual changes in the patch notes do agree with you.