Is it more feasible for H&H to use Vikings instead of BCs on maps with objectives? I usually pick up Wraiths first, then once they’re on cooldown I could either wait for my first BC or get a pair of Vikings against shards and others.
As P2 or P1? 20 characters.
P1. Maybe that’s why I have trouble getting them out sooner.
Haven’t played much P2 to know the difference.
P1 is definitely the better choice but it changes a lot the relative availability and quantity.
I’m generally opening with 10x SFPs and then 5x Hangar Bays into BCs. If against heavy air where the SFPs won’t be as valuable I’ll prioritise the Hangar Bays first but still slowly build SFPs for base pushing.
On DoN ill build Wraith as they are fantastic at clearing buildings even at night time and on ME I’ll build Vikings as they are great for clearing the buffed Infested with their penetrator rounds (and quickly lifting off to snipe Infested Banshees).
Most other maps the BCs are there for tanking and the actual damage is done by the Han units but Vikings are definitely a valid strategy for sniping or for additional objective DPS though I just don’t find it comes up very often (and I play quite a bit of H&H P1 on B+1-4).
As P1 I only take vikings against air comps alongside wraiths. They do good initial burst damage vs. objectives but I think wraiths would out DPS them when fully wound up and BCs do more consistent damage if you get their plasma cannon online. My verdict is use them to complement your AA but don’t rely too much on massing them.
So DPS figures according to my napkin math:
- 3/3 Deimos Viking vs 0 Armour Armoured air target: 47 DPS (200 damage initial)
- 3/3 grounded Deimos Viking vs ground target: 48 DPS
- 3/3 Aesteria Wraith vs 0 Armour target at full charge after 6.4 seconds: 52 DPS
- 3/3 Aesteria Wraith vs 0 Armour target first 6.4 seconds: ~39 DPS
- 3/3 Sovereign BC mini yamato vs 0 Armour target: 130 DPS
Armour ratings on targets will hurt Wraith more than any other Horner unit. Very hard for Wraith to compete on DPS figures vs Vikings or BCs even in ideal conditions. Wraith will only be a better choice than Vikings against ground targetable that can’t be multi attacked which is pretty limited (constructs on CoD?). Already considered DoN structures where Wraith shine due to their ability to attack at night time.
I just tried P2. The prestige really helped with pumping out fliers but the lack of Hans units as meat shield really hurts their survival (especially due to Reapers can be the flyer buffers). However, this actually allowed me to add some Vikings as ground support, a strange experience.
Yes, I remember you posted this route before. You go BC directly with this strat eh?
Yeah P2 is quite fun just the downside is too great too often.
10x SFPs, 5x HBs, 1x Raven, BCs is standard gas expenditure order. Biggest upgrade priority is Napalm first, weapons second, engineering bay third, tech lab fourth and then anything else (ie mini yamato).
I try to be really effective with clearing attack waves with SFs and objectives with calldowns. I’ll delay mass Han unit production until I have essential upgrades.
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Only 1 Raven? I usually get two and upgrade quickly.
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So you upgrade the death effect third. Interesting. My priority in P1 is always upgrading all death effect (usually alongside other upgrades) → 2x Raven/Upgrade → 5x HB → Weapon/armor upgrade (two armories) → Horner units/upgrades (3x Wraith first, then BC). I guess I just focus a lot more on Hans units and improving them (including Raven) before I head for Horner’s, and perhaps that’s why I am considering switching BC for Vikings on some map.
Probably depends somewhat on map/mutation etc however while teching up there generally isn’t massive amounts of disposable mineral income to throw away Ham units to get the value out of death affects. Instead, I’m trying to only build a few Han units in the early game and actually trying to keep them alive. Usually a few Hellions to break rocks and then I’ll transform them into Hellbats to clear T1 units even going so far as to micro them on low health and SCV repair them. 2-5 Galleons can do great work if allowed to slowly clear contested expansions or push into lightly defended bases.
Reapers are fantastic but boxing and splitting Reapers is much harder than Hellion/Hellbat micro and early game can often be carried with the bigger units in small quantities (No problem with DPS density in small numbers).
2 Ravens costs 520 Gas on P1 which is FIVE SFPs. This is grossly overpriced in the early game for the value that they provide. If possible I build ZERO until my SFPs are online. My preference is to build my first one as first Hangar Bays are coming online as this is about the time that I’m adding Reapers to my army which both benefit massively from Raven ability. Obviously an early Raven might be required for detection but often a Strike Fighter can remove invisible units (Swarm Hosts and Lurkers for instance).
This is all about cutting corners and needs a bit of game sense to recognise which corners can be cut and which can’t and what order and when to get EBay upgrades. It’s all about the ongoing value that SFPs give as soon as they are built and the sooner you can get all 10 online the bigger impact that they’ll have through out the game. Especially for their ability to target other top bar abilities through the fog of war (for example laying MAG Mines at spawn points, intercepting attack wave shuttles with Space Station before Hybrids spawn on Scythe for example and just generally getting value out of calldowns as soon as they come off cooldown).
huh. weird that you guys only get 1 - 2 ravens when starcraft coop guides say you should have 3-4.
Though I do get only 2 ravens on P1 (coz gas hurts).
Yes, for those big Void Thrashing type objectives, the Deimos are excellent dps, and stay at range, as opposed to the Battlecruisers which keep getting damaged
They are a support unit however, with less hp than the Asteria wraiths, and can’t attack ground without landing, etc etc so keep in mind
My favorite unit
P1 is probably superior but as an HH main who was determined to make it work, I’ve settled on a good build for P2, and very fun if you like robots
Technically not the fastest possible expansion with HH but the smoothest with instant spot nuke and the earliest activation time for upgraded Horner starships, ready in time before 5:00 for objective. i.e. you have early useful starships in combat
Broad outlines for now:
- Build double gas asap after first supply
- Build galleon asap
- Full saturate gas asap
- Armory immediately after Galleon; galleon goes to expo
- Shredder Cannon research at Starport immediately after Armory; Armory SCV goes minerals
- At 19 on minerals build 2nd supply depot
- This supply depot SCV then builds a forward strike fighter - not too forward, edge of base at most, because
- he will then go to expo afterward
- As soon as strike fighter finishes you can spot drop a space station nuke
- Now drop the Vikings, BEFORE expo. They will be instantly upgraded. use for objective
- Build expo with that SCV
- make 3 more scvs. 1. Engineering Bay. 2. Strike Fighter. 3. Galleon
- research the berserker stim, fire panic at Engineering Bay.
- Boom economy. more strike fighters. upgrades. Second Galleon. more supply depots. Fusion Core Carrier soon if air comp, otherwise later. More Engineering bay upgrades. Etc
With strike fighters and hellion/hellbat buffs piling on, easy and quick beginning.
This is something that’s doable as P0 also; P2 allows rapid accumulation or early BC. (Or super early Asterias and Deimos, but unupgraded they are not that useful)
I see that this is an okay strategy for regular Brutal if that’s how you want to play but in my experience I’d much rather have the 10 SFPs out first vs ground and vs Air it’s much stronger to have Hangar Bay Galleons.
And 5 is better than 2.
So P1.
Later in the game throw in Tactical jump and Viking upgrades if you don’t need the tanking ability of BCs and have air targetable objectives. Occasionally you can get both (like on Void Launch).
With P2 there is no worry about naval trades. HH is my main so I know all about the pros and cons of Carrier drones, Battlecruisers vs other options
Yes, before Prestige I used to play HH spammable opening (not 5 galleon rush, which is dumb) which is better on P0. That’s why I say P1 should shine
But I play for starships. I actually have never played a game of P1. I only care about giant robots. That is the point of P2.
I mass Strike Fighters early, soon after expo up. Early Galleon units are only to support the berserking in this case. Very few Han units, hellions hellbats, used mainly for the buffs until eco strong later
Very fun