Help with ZvP vs Skytoss

Zerg Discussion
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Before starting, I know there are other topics open on the same subject; however I have read them beforehand and in NONE of them have I found an actual response to this strategy. Also, the topic focuses on low level games, not pro.

I am not a veteran of the game, I have played a lot of BW and now I have been playing sc2 in platinum league for over a year; I have an average apm of 150 and I consistently win more games than I lose, and yet I still find myself losing games against players with 50 apm who don’t do anything but carriers; players that are far below my level and that would not stand a chance against me with any other strategy, and yet they do win games just camping and massing carriers. The obvious question of the topic is: how do you beat this with Zerg?

First off, i do undestard the asymmetrical nature of the game, and the fact that some armies are stronger, but you can just avoid them, snipe bases, backstab and so on. But a skytoss army flies, so can easily and quickly reach areas that a ground army can’t, and snipe bases better than you. Also, a protoss army can recall, so ends up being faster than hydra/infestor, so you can’t just outmanouver it.

A lot of comments i have read state that you should not let the protoss expand and get and endgame army, but they don’t say HOW you do this: if you build units to kill expos before 100 cannons get planted, you sacrifice economy, and as soon as the protoss gets a critical mass of whatever (voids, carriers…) will A move you to death. If you let them finish, they will be unbreakable due to the combination of cannons, shields, and the protoss army that can recall. Also, it is worth noting that most of the maps give you a very easy to defend natural, and some players have beat me with a 2 base army of carriers when i was pumping corruptors from a 4 base economy, True story.

Finally, i have tried to destroy the army when they move. If they use voids i go either hydra/viper or corrputor/viper, depending on the map. If they use carriers it’s hydra/infestor/corruptor, and i make spore colonies all over the map. It doesn’t matter, they wreck me without having to do noting but A move.

Either the game is completely broken at low level play (I know skytoss is weak at pro levels, so just save it) and that strategy is simply unbeatable unless the protoss player really sucks, or there’s something that i am missing (which is strange, considering i don’t feel i miss anything in any other situation or matchup at my level of play), in which case I want you to tell me what it is, or if the same happens to you.

Thanks on behalf of my swarm.

1 Like
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Mass corruptor, enough to one shot carrier? Maybe vipers to abduct. People normally go mass corrptor, viper (abduct), infestor (microbial shroud), queen + hydra and ultra (just to clean HTs). Since the army would normally be together, try to attack their eco and split their army as they need to sustain a high amount of eco or they would, but if they split their army and you just kill big swathes at a time you could easily win the game. Lings (both upgrades) with banes should be sufficient. If you’re able to, destroy their production structures or deny key tech. With this strat, if they include mass tempests with carriers, they would be just wasting their money as tempests would be expensive and bad. You should aim to get 200/200 army with lots of money in the bank and spare larvae, as if you go on an engagement, they are more likely to win but since their production would be limited, you’d be able to quickly get your whole army back (preferably hydras) and kill him. I don’t actually have much experience, but I hope that you’ll find this helpful. I hope that you had a Very Happy New Year!

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In regards with spore colonies/crawlers, you should make them all together so if they’d attack that area with carriers, they’d just lose all their carriers (you’ll have to do this all over map as a wall that if he enters he would just die, so you’ll force him to get tempests, and if you abduct these tempests and kill them he’ll have diminishing chances of victory)

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It’s hard, no doubt about it. There’s no magic way to beat anything it’s all practice. If this were the case we would all be GM by reading the forum ie build xy to beat z. Somehow there are zergs in every league so somehow they can beat skytoss, with that said.

In plat you won’t be needed viper/infestor or casters as it’s too hard to manage. Just build corruptors…but only when you have like 10 gas. So hold them off until then and try to build zero units just drones. Queens and transfuse is the only caster you will likely need early to defend anything. (maybe banes for zealot pressure) carapace is nuts on corruptors against carriers so focus on that upgrade. I think people fail when they like build corruptor off 2 base early instead of eco and try to beat 5 void rays over cannons and shield batt. Hydras are garbage unless you hit a very early timing (like grab a canned build) . They will melt against carriers late. My guess is you’re trying to fight a 200/200 toss which will never work. Like GM zergs have to pick at that so yes unless you’re in GM you will die if you try to fight a 200 army head up.

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Ok that was actually very helpful, thank you very much!
The follow up question then would be: how do i avoid him getting to 200/200?
I usually am very good at delaying tactics, like backstabbing, burrowing lings at expo locations, holding off with mutas while i mass expand and stuff like that, but against these toss i feel like the second they get their third up they can just mass air units, and hitting the economy is impossible since they load on tons of cannons and shield batteries. And if you attack his expos with a full army hel’ll just recall and wreck you. How do you hinder the economy of a super defensive protoss? Also note that while his carriers/voids/tempests can fight AND destroy your bases in a matter of seconds, your corruptors CAN’T kill their bases when they cannon up.

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Skytoss is dumb broken. You may as well gg the f out if p gets 200 supply with carriers and storm and archons.
You’re no dark or serral to operate the viper corruptor lurker army you should “in theory” work with.
Carriers need to be deleted from the game, void rays are also retarded in the ealy mid game. Basically you can’t attack protoss but they can attack you.

2 Likes
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Hello Zarpa,
You need to scout early if toss want go skytoss. Often they place a cannon in front of 2.nd base. Then its save for you to go for a timing push:

5 Minutes long you just drohne on 3 bases + 6 queens
then 2 minutes only hydras (all gas) + zerglings

Then push to 2.nd base at minute 6:30 - 7:00. Until here they have only 2-3 carrier or 6-8 voids.
Zerglings on attack mode
16-20 Hydras do snipe cannons / pylons or carrier or voids

Dont wait for deadball ! :blush:

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There are a few things that you have to understand:

  • army value & timing
    For example, if you do the attack that GandalfAwA proposed, it will probably work BUT the TIMING is the most crucial thing! (you can also go for the German Taxi build by Lambo - with or without nydus - depends on the map and your creep spread)
    If you are 1min late, you might always get crushed. This is an RTS game after all so having x supply at a certain time is more important than micro.

  • general mechanics & timing
    Since you are in platinum, you will do a lot of small mistakes:

  • Look at your replays and how much larvae you have lying around.
    Your goal should be that you NEVER have lying around ANY larvae within the first 5 minutes while also keeping your minerals low. (enough larvae but also spend them fast enough; also no supply blocks, of course - non-inject larvae for overlords is good)
  • 4:00 minute scout and if it gets denied by a phoenix or voidray, you can always blindly go for a 2 base German Taxi more or less (usually it’s either a voidray push or chargelot allin or chargelot allin with a couple of voidrays or it’s a carrier rush)
    → Droning up past about 4:20 game time is a risk, if protoss does a 2 base push.
    → Not building 10 lings at about 3:00 puts you at risk vs. a 1 base push or a poke with 2 adepts or proxy stuff.
    → Not knowing how to scout against cannon-rush, proxy gate and other one base cheeses will also lose you the game (take a closer look at the probe movement: is it aggressive or kinda way too active? probably a cheese - check your natural and both 3rd bases for proxy stuff) BUT only send one single drone at first, if there is a pylon - so unless there is a cannon or a 2nd probe, do not commit more than 1 worker that just keeps the protoss busy a bit and scouts the areas that your overlords can’t see (first overlord checks the natural and keeps and eye on production for early adepts or zealots and the 2nd overlord watches your natural and then either goes right across the map for the 4:00 scout or checks for cheese first at one of your 3rd bases - probably the one that is closer to your main base in case of proxy stargate; your 20 supply drone can scout your other 3rd base)

General economy & gas-timing / optimization:

  • Another small thing: Taking your 3rd base too late will be bad because of larvae production and taking your gas too early will be bad because it lowers your mineral income (= growth of your economy). So if you want to go for a 2 base spire, you can stay in gas and get a bit of map control with early ling speed, but if you want to go for a 2 base allin or heavy eco, you should think about a 20 gas (after the pool) or 3:00 minute gas (more than 1 of course).

→ You always want to train the basics (injects, creep spread, a general build order) a bit - like 15-30min every day
i.e.

  • Cover any of the 7 ladder maps in creep every day.
  • Try to get max drones within the first 4:20 minutes and then start pumping out roaches.
  • Practice building a wall (vs. ling rushes) on that ladder map: baneling nest placement, evo chamber placement, secondary wall.

Also another thing about voidrays:
Voidrays and carriers are overpowered in lower leagues because the toss player can be lazy. So if you train your creep spread and splitting your queens (i.e. with “add to control group and take away units”), you will be able to deflect the voidrays better.
And if you can scout the map with your early 6-10 lings (watch towers, patrol, both 3rd protoss bases, you will get better at scouting a move-out and enemy army movement so you can be in position in time - which is also very important in the other matchups.)

I hope that helps! Feedback is appreciated (what helped you the most) so others can use the infos better.

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I’ll bite, yeah skytoss is broken again… it wasn’t before but now the meta is figured out 99 percent of players open void ray into third and cannon shield battery while harrasing with voids. This makes them always get to late game which is pretty much decided as they took no damage early. (unless you’re GM) Yes you can Queen walk or have spore forests and micro but most of the time it’s over. I have found I can just build 15 lings at 3 minutes and win but it’s lame.

I don’t mind late game skytoss if getting there requires some kind of investment and it’s not guaranteed to get to late game.

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Yeah. It’s broken. Funny how the 3-4 dudes shouting everyone who brings it up down in other threads don’t pitch in with actual advice yet assert there is a counter. Somehow. Somewhere. Here’s a strategy that sometimes does the trick: go ground. Take the damage and steamroll the production buildings (throw in some ultras) as soon as they leave their base. It ain’t pretty but you’re not gonna beat them with air so oppose them on the ground. With a bit of luck, once the support is gone, you may actually get some mileage out of a second wave of corruptors to clean up; but don’t expect it to be costeffective. You’ll have to be AHEAD to pull it off, and keep building while doing it lest you lose all your sh!t before they do. Godspeed my man.

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Curious if the OP feels they received an adequate response to the question?