Gone are the days of PvZ macro. I miss playing the long macro games with a chance of winning when I’m an equal skill level with your opponent. Now to win against Zerg with macro, you have to be considerably better than them from a fundamental standpoint. Now all PvZ is, is a weird gimmicky matchup where Protoss has to do a lot of damage early, so they can be on equal footing going into late game, or be able to do a timing attack in the mid-late game transition period. While the balance patch suggestions change a few things regarding “nerfs” such as creep being changed to a light tag and “buffs” like revelation being cheaper, it doesn’t fix the issues of the matchup. Queen range changing increases the effectiveness of harass… but keeps the matchup a hyper aggressive mess from the Protoss side. I don’t see anything that would fix the problems they’re actually “trying” the address. The most obvious solution (in my opinion) would be buffing skytoss, to have a fighting chance once again.
With the loss of the infested Terran and BL nerf Protoss has the advantage in PvZ lategame
Hey same in TvZ, or TvP. In TvP you have to 2 base all in every game and game usually gets decided from that and only than you can try macro out of it, if you do enough dmg. But you can’t play straight macro, which is stupid…
TvZ you are on timer, no one wants to get late game against Zerg, so you have to 3 base all in every game, just try to kill zerg with 7 rax and if you don’t you autolose…
TvT is just random coinflipp at start with reaper/hellion and than random doom drop, or siege under cliff and than mass vikings, one player has more of them and one less. Player with more viking count wins. But no one can count clumped vikings to see if he has more or less so viking wars are coinlipp…
PvZ is just 2/3 base all ins, because ravager/bane with sh…
No it doesn’t, clueless as usual… Zerg will use vipers early on to diminish carrier count and has mid game advantage with sh etc. so he will be ahead and than just turtle and take more bases with infestor + corruptor + spores and protoss actually has to all in with dts and zealots and try to take zerg apart. But in lower leagues it is hard to beat, as carriers take no micro… So it may seem protoss is favored late game while he is not…
lol, Protoss has no issues playing macro against Zerg. Adept timings are giving them huge advantages right now.
Imagine whining about PvZ late game when Zerg’s late game got completely gutted. The only real counter to Skytoss was nerfed into the ground and replaced with a trash spell that nobody uses.
You have no idea what youre talking about. At the highest level Zerg loses the lategame, even when the protoss player is inferior to the zerg player
Off the top of my head:
Serral lost to showtime lategame pvz
Bly lost to gungfubanda
soo lost to neeb
SortOf lost to Astrea
Vipers get zoned out by HT and/or Tempests.
When these games happened ? It doesn’t matter tempest outzones that, you can get abducted/or neural and you can’t engage into spore city, if he takes most part of map you will be in trouble. Zerg get huge lead from swarmhosts and will be ahead in the game, by the time you get carriers out, zerg takes whole map…
So you saw one game protoss win in late game and now you thinks it is unbeatable, while it is not. Depends on many factors honestly. If Zerg didn’t go sh and Protoss somehow got ahead, than yes it can work. But if Zerg is ahead, he will get 50 spores and mass infestors and you won’t be ever able to engage, couple tempest doesn’t matter, that doesn’t even scratch it and corruptors can come forward and attack them, or they get yanked etc…
If you think this game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RcfFlnd4CgSerral was massively behind and didn’t even have mass spore/infestor… No one actually cares about carriers in pro games. Because Zerg ends game usually with swarmhosts, or banes and game rarely gets to a point, yet Protoss is usually behind, so he doesn’t have money to transition into them , or zerg have already counter to them…
They all happened after the IT was removed.
Serral vs showtime was hsc i believe
bly vs gungfu was a couple of weeks ago in some online tournament i forget which
soo vs neeb was nation wars
sortof vs astrea was a recent olimoleague iirc
I didn’t see “one game”
I’ve seen many games at the HIGHEST LEVEL where zerg pros lose to protoss lategame more often than not even when the zerg pro is better than the protoss pro.
Between storm, disruptor, carrier, and tempest range, as well as flux vane voids patrolling and zoning any corruptor dives (of course with storm/archon), and the new time warp that affects air units, the zerg comp is at a complete disadvantage because it is the protoss that has the ability to engage with superior range.
In the old days BLs could zone out HTs, and ITs could buffer against storm (protoss could not just spam storm on corruptor balls and whatnot because that would mean everything would die to IT)
Zerg lost everything it needed to fight skytoss. The balance team thought the dumb ability MS would compensate but it doesnt.
this just in: carrier/storm/archon continues to a-move lategame zerg armies
we’ll be sure to keep you updated as this story develops
In WCS Fall, before the brood and infestor nerfs, Protoss had a higher win-rate in the late game.
Thats we see so many protoss players go macro in pvz but yeah that doesnt count because we see every zerg player go muta in every matchup but mutas are bad. Dang. slowly i get the notion! Right is wrong and wrong is right! right? WRONG!
Hydras nerfed
Queen nerfed
Infestor nerfed
Ultra nerfed
Brood Lord nerfed
Creep nerfed (all ground units affected)
Nydus nerfed
Drops nerfed
Roach nerfed
Scouting nerfed
Bane nerfed soon?
That’s why Muta is so popular.
Zealot nerfed
Wp double nerfed
colossi dead since the beginning of lotv
carrier nerfed
recall nerfed
voids dead since the beginning of sc2
oracles nerfed and buggy
adepts nerfed
immortal nerfed
observer nerfed
disruptor nerfed
tempest nerfed
thats why not going macro is so popular PLUS going full air is never an option so mutas are good in zvp.
Most of them are not even nerfs but a buffs… Example: scouting. How does receiving a overlord hotspot (LOTV) in every single 1v1 map is a nerf?
Second part of your “nerfed list” is just tickle nerf… Like, wow +25 extra minerals nydus cost like this would change anything when zerg has millions minerals in bank when he got nydus already. Compare this to siege tank nerf from WoL for example… From 70 or 60 dmg to 35… That’s a nerf! Your nydus nerf is just a tickle.
Queen nerf? It’s not nerf. It’s more like buff revert. First they buffed the queen years ago and just left them at overpowered state for years. Now they are just taking back the extra range they gave to it. So just a buff revertion after a long time, not nerf.
You didn’t understand my post… the difference here is that macro toss is still frequently used! Yes Mutas are used but you should be happy about it.
Only that you dont understand that macro is not frequently used in pvz. Thats literally what even blizz says. especially late game is z favored and we never see it. it makes 0 sense to play macro. only to throw off your opponent maybe.
Everything I stated was a nerf, by definition.
I’M NOT SAYING THEY WERE BAD NERFS… but they are nerfs and that’s a fact. Also… “buff revert”? 1. THAT’S CALLED A NERFED!!! And 2. HOW THE HECK IS THE TRANSFUSE NERF A “BUFF REVERT”?
What I posted is 100% correct, objective, factual and documented, LOOK AT THE PATCH NOTES. Again I didn’t say I disagree with the changes but saying those are “not nerfs” is flat out dishonest and bad faith on your part.
lol, it’s true. Muta are just as bad as they always were but Zergs are out of options. Should they use hydras, which aren’t even at full power until it’s almost late game? Or should they use roaches, which are literally one of the worst units in the game?
Zergs are getting creative with how they’re using muta because if you make them early enough to be effective you’re going to die to a push, so they delay them and try to get some value by hoping their opponent won’t see them coming.
I’m not exactly sure about your statement.
Well, from 2 GM zerg it said: toss late, sky toss is strong.
Lowko said: the pro level is late game zerg favored.But in the GM itself many zerg have problems to control the late comp. Another point Lowko made was the difficulty of late/ sky toss, because after a certain point you don’t see a big difference from better players with sky toss. Therefore lowko hopes that it will find a change to strengthen the better toss in the late comp.
short:
zerg late comp has a better skill course, at a certain point it is zerg advantage in the late comp. Problem is the point is in the top GM lvl.
Sky toss/ late toss: Can also be played in GM .Because not every zerg player is called Serral or Dark.
I have to think about the point with early aggression.
You Zergs get so salty. Enjoy those incoming nerfs.
I don’t know where you got that information from, but carriers are garbage, mothership is garbage, tempests are garbage. What is protoss supposed to do against viper + bl + corruptors and a bunch of ground units ?