Ghost Mech Needs A Huge Nerf

Can we please wipe this turtle Terran strategy from the game? It doesn’t even show a players skill and makes for bad games. Watching TvTvTvT GSL is becoming disheartening year after year.

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Most convincing troll ever. Lol…

Although there are people who really think the ghost is viable such as reynor, but his brain hasn’t fully developed yet. Just use viper’s pull to cancel the snipe.

But please do nerf terran, instead of maru losing 0 - 4 to serral we should have bigger best-of games and he should lose 20+ games in a row to showcase even better that terran isn’t viable.

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I feel like none of you guys actually play this game on ladder. Every single ZvT ends up with the Terran turtling on 5 bases until he can siege shift + snipe his way to another. Its almost an impossible composition to beat and theres so much micro on the Zergs end compared to Terrans literal shift + snipe and running away ghosts as the only micro ever done. If ghosts aren’t nerfed they need to make Planetary Fortresses a less spammable structure.

Dude, Serral is the best player in the game. It would be different if tons of Zergs were winning this year but Serral is literally the only Zerg that has won a Premiere tournament in 5 months now. Also you’re talking about a single tournament, why ignore the past 3 Premiere tournaments (ESL Spring/Spring Europe and Starwar) that have been TvP’s?

I’ll never understand this argument, there hasnt been another Premiere Tournament Zerg in the finals since October and December of last year. Hell, Dark has been the only Zerg in a Major tournament final since June of last year. But yea, its totally the race; right?

Hell, even looking at Minor tournaments there hasn’t been a Zerg winner since June of last year outside of team games. Ya’ll make zero sense.

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You forgot that Rogue recently returned from military and is nowhere near his optimal form, Dark on the other hand is almost in the military, so he can’t probably even focus on SC2 anymore.

About turtle mech.
Yeah sure i agree with you. Let’s play bio tank or bio mine so that F2 a-move ling-bane can wipe out entire army. If terran somehow manages to split, add infestor ultra to completely delete terran army in seconds. I am more than certain that if bio was dominant on the ladder, you’d be crying “nerf bio please”.

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the double standard is funny.
Hots SH turtle is bad design, but Turtle tank with PF/ tank is good… sure.
It’s boring how Terra can slow down the game.

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Mech does not attack you from their side of the map with waves of free units that the opponent is forced to fight continuously.

The entire idea behind Swarm Hosts was a mistake from the start. In LOTV they were reworked to be less problematic, but even that form of the unit should have never been in the game.

When a mech player turtles, you can simply take the map and overwhelm them, and you have plenty of tools that can break them.

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Mules are so easy to spam and their units are so cost efficient, Terran units might as well be considered free.

typical turtle player talk, but not wanting to do it themselves against old swarm host.
just take the map and clean up the creep spread. Just double morale.

sitting behind PF and with thor and tank, ghost and outrange everyone else is good game design… sure…

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You can’t take the map against the old swarm-host because you can literally never leave your base since they’re constantly spawning wave after wave of free units and trading the locusts over and over again for minerals/gas without any time between.

HotS Swarm-hosts constantly allowed you to put on pressure 100% of the time with no risk to the Swarm-host, at no cost to the zerg, with 0 ability to leave the base from the terran. If they try, they die. That’s why the games from the swarm-host meta were literally multi-hour long snooze-fests.

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but if you’ve been following this, you know it wasn’t one-sided… T was able to sit it out and win. The difference is T could do it in WoL, Hots and lotv, while Zerg lost those tools again.
as I said: double standard.
“Sh is boring, it makes the game slow bla bla bla” but on the other hand “no, Turtle is not problematic just take the whole map”

here i refer again to a turtle player “wisdom”: don’t let it get that far…
you just have to apply pressure earlier while taking the whole map.
that’s why you have parallel production. and as many harass options as T/P.

These “words of wisdom” are great, but only if you don’t have to follow them yourself.

And so did Terran. The thing that enabled that was the Raven’s Point Defense Drone and Auto-Turret.

Auto-Turret got completely gutted, going from a 3 minute cool-down (which was completely absurd) with a long cast range, to a cast range of 2 and a 7 second long turret - if that.

PDD got removed completely.

Seeker missile was removed and replaced with armour shredder which itself then got gutted as well to do 0 damage (it needed to do 0 damage though).

Without any of those abilities from the Raven, Swarm-Hosts could chip away at your mineral/gas bank through doing even a single point of damage by forcing you to eventually repair your units/planetary fortresses. Repair isn’t free, so you’d simply just lose the game otherwise.

Mech in WoL was genuinely terrible as well, so don’t tell me you could do it in WoL. The infestor in WoL single-handedly made the composition a non-entity.

Broods were way stronger, Infestors had instant-fungal that also did bonus damage to armoured units, ITs that scaled off upgrades and were effectively free, allowing literal armies of nothing but Infested terrans.

Thors were significantly worse without HIP and had an energy based ability that was, frankly, terrible. Tanks were legitimately terrible units and required research to use, there were no hellbats to actually serve as a front-line for Mech (and attempting the same with bio isn’t even remotely feasible). BCs didn’t have tac jump and were complete paperweights to the point where there was literally never a situation in which you wanted to build them.

And if you’re meching, that - again - is not possible to do at all against the HotS swarm-hosts.

The combination of mobility and vision from creep and overlords, nydus worms forcing constant repositions for defense, and swarm-host’s ability to launch a literally endless stream of enemies meant you couldn’t ever leave your base to even attempt to apply pressure. Keep in mind, battle-mech wasn’t a thing either, because the cyclone didn’t exist then, so mobility was relegated effectively to helions and banshees, and that’s about it.

Swarm Hosts were often efficient enough that they could deal with bio too, though it was significantly harder to do vs Bio. Snute vs Bunny comes to mind.

Honestly your only path to victory during the swarm host era as Terran was to do an all in off 2 bases, or turtle long enough and hope that your Zerg opponent was stupid enough to throw everything away multiple times in a row.

That’s literally the terran mantra. Keep them on the back foot so you can get there before they do, or kill them outright. Unless you’re maru, you’re kinda screwed if you don’t do that.

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Again, the Swarm Host is nothing like anything in the mech arsenal. If a mech player wants to attack you with ANYTHING, they have to cross the map themselves with units that actually cost something and risk getting killed. Whether that’s Battlecruisers, Banshees, Hellions, Cyclones, Ghosts, Thors, a Tank push, or whatever, there is always a risk of losing the units in the attack.
You can also break a turtling mech player by taking the map and overwhelming them, or making good use of Ravagers, or making good use of casters (particularly Vipers) alongside your army. If a mech player decides to turtle, that doesn’t force your army to be stuck defending a specific base and unable to expand for hours on end like the old Swarm Host did.

Swarm Hosts could attack you from across the map while turtling with Spines, Spores, and other units to protect themselves. There is never any risk to the Zerg player, and the Locusts themselves lock the other player down by forcing them to constantly clean up Locusts. While doing that, the Zerg player was free to expand and use the resources they saved by not having to train units to build up an even larger advantage.

Sorry, but both of those claims are BS.

Swarm Host games were about as one-sided as things could be. Locusts would constantly keep the other player on the defensive while Zerg was free to expand, build up, and tech-up faster than the other player as the other player bled out. The Zerg player had to seriously mess up in order to lose that fight.

As for “turtling” with Zerg, Swarm Hosts were never necessary for that. You don’t need a unit that constantly attacks the other side of the map if you want to turtle. You just need to secure enough expansions to cover your resources and build up enough units or defensive structures to handle the army that the opponent decides to throw at you. Zerg has Queens, Spines, Spores, Infestors, Lurkers, Vipers, and Brood Lords for that, although they still need to supplement with other units before they get their tech setup and occasionally when dealing with mass air.

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first of all, why are you using 2 acc again … does that make you feel encouraged? but another topic.

if you remembered, you would know that in TvZ T sits behind pf tanks and has easily stopped sh waves without them coming close. no repair needed.
and now to say it costs terra so much apm to put a tank in siege mode is sad…

sorry i forgot in hots has started zerg with 75% of the map with creep and 2 base + lair…

no wait, that’s not true. Say t had options for early control…

if you can’t combine and actively use your units by splitting them up.

all in all again T: we have it so hard … we are such victims every nerf is not justified. but every buff is necessary. T must be able to do everything, but with the others all parts can be cut off.

Not playing mech you don’t, and that was my point.

As a bio player you could a lot more effectively because bio was reliant on early timings, parade pushes and hit and run. None of those things are true for mech. The only real playstyle for mech was - you guessed it, turtling.

It’s like you’re unable to come up with actual counter arguments. I’ve already pointed out why this was the case, and it’s entirely due to the raven. Without PDD - which, again, got removed - you would always be inflicting some damage on the terran, even if it was just one point. And that would eventually need repairs. Which cost money.

I wouldn’t say siege tanks required a lot of micro. But:

Unsiege, move to new location of attack, siege, drop PDD, focus fire, unsiege repeat is a lot more than one move.

I think I understand what you’re saying here but the actual wording of this sentence is bafflingly bad.

Must be a nice dreamland you live in, since nobody said that even once.

In fact, multiple times in my previous post I stated that the nerfs the raven got were justified for one reason or another.

Look, Hallo, just quit before you shoot yourself in the foot. Again.

Edit: hey fun fact for you, during pro play there were games so long that were cause by the swarm host meta - in both pvz and tvz - that players actually got reprimanded for alt tabbing out of the game to check facebook on live broadcasts.

One of the longest games in the world was a 3+ hour PvZ firecake vs mana. No tanks or PFs here, but sure, swarm hosts weren’t problematic at all.

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typical Miro… you are mixing up the scenario, it’s about the point how to play against Turtle especially SH Turtle.

you don’t make any arguments either… a list of hots units. what news hots != Lotv.

You are 2 steps above the standard MMM+Tank Terran. Who don’t know the difference between Immortal and stalker or roach and hydra.

subtext: terran crying again, everything is so hard.
partly i would agree with you, but in context: two siege positions, your unsiege micro is not available. Even in lotv, where the attacker is more dynamic T is not constantly moving their tank.

you gave the example yourself: whether T or P, they could sit behind turtle just like zerg.
The double standard is that people only complain about zerg when the others have similar tools.

I gave plenty of counters to your arguments in my previous reply and you’ve deigned not to respond to pretty much any of them.

Your inability to understand the point I was making does not, in fact, mean I didn’t have a point, nor does it mean I misunderstood/mixed up the scenario.

What it does mean is that you have exactly 0 idea of how Terran works and why I’m specifying mech instead of bio. I won’t bother to explain it since you clearly seem to be incapable of basic reading comprehension, adding any explanation would serve only to confuse you more than your single brain-cell can handle.

Your inability to understand the point I was making does not, in fact, mean I didn’t have a point, nor does it mean I misunderstood/mixed up the scenario.

I never said that at all. I didn’t even say it was hard, just that it was more than one button press. Stop misrepresenting the argument - it’s not a good look for you and just makes you look stupid.

Sure, I’d agree with that, though I’d argue that a number of factors have changed in the meantime - specifically that players back in 2014/15 are (for the most part) significantly worse than their counterparts 10 years later in 2024. The game is also drastically different too, as many unit buffs and nerfs have happened since.

Having said that, it’s primarily about reacting to where the bulk of the damage is coming from - you want your tanks and PDD covering where they’re doing the largest push, or pushing the most consistently.

The point

--------------->

Your head

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I summarize:

  • complaint about turtle terran, especially the mech / ghost comp. with the question why this is so.
  • i remember that the long games in hots were considered bad. Reason we had two siege positions because Zerg had a tool that created more ground range than Terran. (SH). With the reference to the double morale: Zerg loose turtle tool, Terran not.
  • Miro bring hots units list to realize the games were different.
  • I share the anti-turtle rules
  • Miro brings Terran hard life stories and pseudo micro, and should slowly realize that these anti-turtle rules may not be so untouchable after all.

in short: agree with OP the strong static def Turret/ PF, with the crazy range of Thor/ Tank and all round anti Zerg unit Ghost is ridiculous.

That’s what I mean by double standard: Sh slowed down the game and complained. but slowing down T should be accepted.

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