Fundamental issues with PvZ

General Discussion
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I will start off by saying that I played Toss and Terran in BW and play Toss and Zerg in SC2. Also I have watched a lot of StarCraft over the years.

Protoss issues:

  1. Zealots are countered by every Zerg unit in the game cost for cost. Yes to zerglings on even upgrades. And even if you get an upgrade advantage, banelings will absolutely wreck you. In small numbers they can fight roaches but lose super badly in bigger fights. Much worse than the math from BW for Zealot vs Hydra. Protoss has to build Zealots because there is no other mineral dump but can at least use them for harass and that’s what pros have resorted too. Using mineral dump (Zealots and prism) for harass. Gas units are to survive.
  2. Stalkers are literally countered by every early game Zerg unit in the game cost for cost. Only trade I can think of where Stalkers might do OK is Blink Stalkers vs slow roaches off creep. Zealots are pretty bad in PvZ but Stalkers are just god awful.
  3. Sentry’s are extremely expensive and fragile. They are powerful, but require more micro than it takes to defend against them. In PvZ, Ravagers have made them nearly obsolete and at this point in the meta, any decent level Zerg knows how to bait out FF and just drain their energy. Not a good unit to base balance on and has always been a bad unit for game design.
  4. Protoss late game air is completely unviable.
  5. Protoss has no early game map control. The only unit that Toss has that can gain map control is the oracle. Hence, 3(!) oracle openings. Arguably phoenix but Oracle is better for reasons stated below.
  6. Related to the above: There is no way for Protoss to stop Zerg creep.
  7. Zerg gets their third at ~2:30 or earlier which Protoss cannot keep up with.
  8. To even have have a chance at taking your third at a decent time you must have an oracle to deter/kill lings from killing the Nexus or potentially even wiping out your ground army (related: lings are cost efficiently against all early game Toss units)
  9. Oracle is really important but was nerfed into the ground.
  10. Immortal and Prism were nerfed.
  11. Colossus was nerfed (compared to pre LotV)
  12. HTs were nerfed multiple times.
  13. Spores require just a spawning pool. A necessity for TvZ but pretty much removes any harass potential for Toss, especially with 8 AA range queen.
  14. Many of these issues existed in Brood War (which was also favored Zerg in PvZ) but to make up for it, Toss had commensurately strong late game units and Zerg could be effectively pressured early game because of larva scarcity. Neither of these mechanics exist in SC2 to temper early game and late game PvZ.

There is more but those are the important ones.

Zerg issues:

  1. The only time Zerg is vulnerable is mid game. Early game they have full map control and excellent scout denial. Late game they almost without fail have more resources and an army that is superior (and, counterintuitively more expensive… for example, corrupters and banelings are probably the two most supply efficient and costly per supply units in the game… Banelings for sure)
  2. Zergs early game all ins are hard to scout and extremely hard to hold even at the highest pro level (see: Rogue showing the world just how scary a simple baneling/ling bust is vs Zest) Big disparity in difficulty to hold the all in vice the difficulty to execute
  3. Ravagers are expensive but they are a tier 1 unit useful in all match ups for the entire game. I love how people talk about queens and broodlords but nobody bats an eye when Serral or Dark are using Ravagers 20+ minutes into games and winning. Funny enough I think they are actually even better TvZ than PvZ especially when you have somebody skilled with them. Ravagers are micro intensive so really only are problematic at the highest skill levels. Ravagers biggest issue IMO is the very short bile cooldown. Pros can dish out insane damage and have insane ability to control enemy army movement with biles.
  4. Nydus play is still disproportionately hard to stop. If you miss the first Nydus, just get ready to slowly die because your low DPS units will never stop the waves of locusts.
  5. The Viper is arguably the best caster in the game.
  6. On the positive side, Infestor brood lord seems to finally be (mostly?) dead
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At this point the best and easiest change devs could make to a pvz fix attempt could be making forcefields unbreakable by biles.

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1 Zealot loses to 1 Hydra? 1:1 Roach also?

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Low numbers no, but in any numbers, there isn’t enough surface area and, perhaps more importantly, the ranged unit can focus down individual zealots whereas the melee damage is spread out. Its like in ZvZ where a handful of roaches gets surrounded and overwhelmed by roaches but when you get like 15 roaches they just start wrecking lings.

Edit: Plus Roaches can kite zealots, especially on creep before zealot/roach speed. Even after they both have speed upgrade, unless there is some kind of choke, they can easily kite back and separate the zealots from the rest of your army and isolate them. Good FF and use of terrain can mitigate that however.

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Zealots trade better vs roaches, hydras, banelings…

Yes, and that’s why they’re rarely used now. Other units have taken their place.

Now that’s a joke. Every Protoss goes air late game and Protoss late game is much stronger than Zerg’s.

https ://clips.twitch.tv/RamshackleAmericanEndiveDoubleRainbow

Oh no, it’s so horrible that HTs don’t kill spell casters instantly with a single click\

For a race that’s dominated most tournaments and GM for the last two years they definitely whine a lot.

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I really hope you mean 1 zealot vs 1 roach/hydra/baneling. But 1v1 doesn’t matter. What matters is army vs army and zealots have poor synergy and a group of say 15 zealots is going to get owned by 15 roaches.

WTF… Are you still playing HotS?

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Equal supply zealots beat roaches and hydralisks even though they’re cheaper. Maybe it’s a bit different now after the last patch but probably not. Banelings pretty much never trade efficiently zealots. Only exception is Zerglings when they get hive upgrades.

No, I’m just not in gold legue.

https ://clips.twitch.tv/RamshackleAmericanEndiveDoubleRainbow

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Dude Charge Zealots are some of the best units in the game. I’m not denying that Protoss is overwhelming unfavored in PVZ, but to complain about Charge Zealots? It’s not mono-battle, dude. Even the slightest bit of control is going to allow you to take almost any of those fights (save Banes, which are being nerfed).

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I think it’s time to nerf mobile warp ins and buff Gateway units

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Toss issues:
1.) Zealots vs Ling, if zealots you split your zealots, you will. But if they come together and stop 4 lings from fighting 1 zealot, they win.
Zealots vs. Roach is a melee problem. The bigger the groups get the better Range attack, because more can attack. e.g. marine vs ling. if 20 marine > 40 ling.
2.) blink stalker’s good. And there is blink stalker push which is played in the pro level. stalkers belong in a mixed army.
3.) yes. you can still play them against hydra ling bane. but roach/ ravagers are currently more popular.
4.) I hope you’re talking about pro Ivl. Because even on GM lvl, late toss is possible. 2 GM streamers said: that pro z can beat late air toss and it looks easy. But they themselves have problems against this comp.
5.) comprehensible. mostly probe -> adapt -> air stuff.
6.) there are ways but you would have to invest. archon/ immortal drop (possible to get strong again with queen range nerf) Harass is stopped -> add observer.
currently you need observer and air stuff. (void/ orcal/WP), otherwise you could get caught by speed ling.
7.) only partly true. But you can do without gas like Zerg. That means you have to do without tec as well.
If you spike on the subject of ecco. until ~5-6min toss has better or same ecco plus the toss has almost cleared all tec trees. ever seen Zerg ~5-6min hive? and a solid defense?
8.) may be. (2 pylon 3adapt traden really good with many early ling).
9.) you still see a lot. And they are very versatile -> harass with dmg, ->harass through stasis ward, -> vision exercise army.
-> def through Stasis Ward
10.) / 11.) yes
12.) like infestor
13.) exactly the same reason drop lord get nerf, for the versatility of the game.
14.) I can’t say that I lack the knowledge of Sc BW.

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SC2 isnt monobattles. Zealots play their role more than sufficiently in pvz comps

Again, this isn’t monobattles, and Stalkers get to blink. Gateway units like zealots and stalkers arent designed to be cost-for-cost powerful

Blink All-ins are used in the highest level PvZs successfully.

Ravagers haven’t made them obsolete. Protoss can trap and heavily damage/kill a portion of zerg army before the bile destroys the FF.

At the pro level, protoss pros punch above their weight against zerg players in the lategame thanks to skytoss.

It’s simply a design of the matchup. Like Terran has no early game map control vs Protoss. Doesnt mean PvT is Protoss favored

Zerg units are less cost efficient

Not true

I agree here, no reason for the oracle, immortal, and prism to have been nerfed. But queens are on the verge of gettin nerfed anyway.

Agree that Colossus needs a buff but not because of PvZ

HTs need nerfs reverted, but for PvT not PvZ

protoss has no problem harassing at high level play

You got it backwards. Zerg is strongest in ZvP in the midgame. Otherwise they are trying to survive devastating protoss harass and timings, or auto lose to Protoss lategame comp

iirc Zest actually DID scout for it but didnt pay attention and see it. If Zest saw it he wouldve had a free win.

Ravagers are fine in ZvP and are awful in ZvT

I wouldve agreed with you in 2019. in 2020 not so much

Ghost is the best caster in the game. followed by HT

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Patently false. Show me one pro game where this happened. Blink all ins in PvZ do not exist in the current meta at the highest level.

It is actually the opposite. At low levels Zerg players have trouble dealing with maxed out skytoss army but pros make crushing it look easy. This is widely known as sated by Hallo above.

negative, because like I said earlier, once speedlings are on the field, Protoss loses map control until he has air units.

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Zerg issues:
1.) early zerg vision is an ovi, mostly creep spread is not even up to 3 base. And before ling speed is finished you can scout with adapt. after that everything flies into the base of zerg. In the early game zerg has an advantage in the point of vision because it sees everything that comes out of the base.
2.) Rogue vs Zest is not a good example, Zest wanted to push early Adapt and was punished for it. Otherwise you could say Adapt push in early game are op (Serral vs Zest).
in general it’s hard to keep all -in. therefore “all-in”. traumas from Immortal/sentry all-in in hots.
3.) Marine 50 mineral and also used minute 20+.
Ravagers are good units, but cost 100/100 |3 sup (btw in small groups Ravagers lose to zealot).
4.) short confused nydus. but you’re talking about nydus SH. I agree in PvZ. with Colossus it works but first you need Colossus tec and 2-3 Colossus at the right place. 2. The locus must have landed.
The other way is you have 3-4 voids to fly the patrol. The only thing that works is counter attack and keeping Sh in Def.
5.) True, but it is also a t3 unit to compensate for the range disadvantage of Zerg.
6.) yes, but still playable only not so strong anymore

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game 2 of Dear Vs Armani

Then how is it that after the loss of infested terran, Serral, Soo, Bly, and other zerg players lose to inferior protoss players’ maxed out skytoss?

Zest saw Rogue’s gas.

That’s the tell that banes are coming

Protoss not having early game map control doesn’t mean they can’t scout and respond properly

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I have suggested a proposal for some Protoss units in the General Discussion thread (pg. 221), so check it out :smiley:

In addition I would like to add some changes to the Protoss Stalker unit

Stalker

  1. Increase its movement speed from 4.13 to 4.25 or something, not as fast as Zerglings but much faster than it was.
    • This would make Stalkers better at early game harassment as it would reach the opposite side of the map faster, besides allowing it to better chase down roaming units around the map, thus embracing the purpose it was intended for.
  2. Add Ability: Dissimilate (durational) (not an Upgrade)
    • Allows the Stalker unit to nullify 2 instances of enemy attack (and maybe spell too?), regardless of the damage. This would make Stalkers as better frontline units, though not as much as Immortals, which have the better Barrier ability.
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Lol. Wut?

Did anyone else read what I just read? Protoss has been dominating tournaments for the last two years?

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I 100% agree with the thoughtful and well composed opening post.

I would add one thing. Starcraft is a game of making decisions with incomplete information. For reasons unclear zerg gets a ridiculous amount of opening intel when other races do not. Not only do they get the creep mechanism and flying scouts early, but they also get well positioned spots on the map that let them see critical structures and units. This doesn’t make any sense to me especially when zerg is already the race in the best position to have map info (scatter your overlords, use your speedy 1 supply lings for scouting, use burrow, etc )

The queen and baneling nerf is a good start but honestly it doesn’t go nearly far enough with fixing major issues in the game which the opening post points out.

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Yeah that’s a good point and one I forgot to mention. I play zerg by the way but when I mentioned on this forum that there is no reason for there to be pervert pillars put on every map (its not a 100% necessary feature like a reasonably wallable natural or the doodad below the ramp to prevent Toss from walling zerg in with pylons)… the Zerg cried bloody murder. Like they could not possibly survive without this feature. And, paradoxically, at the same time, kept saying about how unimportant it was… “All you can see is a little bit of the natural”. It made no sense.

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IMO, once the protoss late game A-move army problem is solved, all other follow naturally.

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Umm neither of those games are a blink all in, let alone even a blink opener. They are both glaive openers. The first game he won because Reynor terribly mismicroed and got roaches and roach speed late causing him to lose his 4th putting him on even bases with the Toss and eventually down a base. Reynor was even or behind on bases for almost the whole game and even though he got his 3rd slightly faster, as mentioned before, he lost way too many drones to the adepts without even cleaning them up. AND ACTUALLY PULLED THE DRONES BACK TO LET THE ADEPTS GET MORE KILLS.

That is why he lost.

For the Dear vs Armani game, Dear also opened glaives and got a lot of dmg with it. Also… he didn’t even get blink until 12:30. Dear won because of robo units and had 5+ immortals in that last push. The only thing I will say in defense of blink for this game was that it was a way to deal with he biles because he baited a bunch out and then blinked back. That was good. Also actually can help to deal with banelings if you have storm. Saw Classic pull a super boss move by letting banelings roll forward toward his stalkers. Classic stormed on top of his stalkers and then blinked back and all the banelings died lol. Classic still lost though =/