This matchup is so broken in this patch it is beyond a joke, my noob Protoss which i have not studied any openings or timings allready has 76% winrate vs Terran and sub 50% winrate on the others on a PTR which is all smurfs.
Terran is getting obliterated by Protoss on the PTR there is nothing they can do to stop fast 3rd apart from SCV pull allin, and they cant even secure natural with standard build proxy gate kills them.
I am really not enjoying being forced to switch to Toss i find them very boring to play and just less fun in general.
If this goes live in this state all its going to be in ladder is PVP is nowhere near balanced almost as bad as PVZ on the live sever.
Ill give you one exmple of one of the most disguting games i played, he went proxy gate i allready had bunker ready in main by the time the Zealot arrived at 2.30 (impossible to secure natural without pulling scvs to get the bunker down)
He then goes DTS running 1 by 1 into my bunker to waste all my scans knowing i cant push with no scans.
So then you have to build a Raven allready too late he has 3rd allready and Spamming voidrays.
If you build fast engine bay and turrets you cant push not enough units there is literally NOTHING you can do , on the contrary Terran is struggling to secure the narural vs platter of back to back cheese while Protoss has already won the game with fast 3rd up and running.
You have made Terran an allin race vs Protoss and even that does not work if they just make DTS to force scans , Raven is too slow nothing works.
Please fix your game or many Terrans will be leaving it.
Them making you waste scans off of a proxy cheese is just meta gaming you hard. You have the right idea with getting a raven but depending, it might just be better to make a macro OC and use it for scans.
Tell me what you do when they have proxy gate and the Zealot arrives at 2.30 when you have 2 marines, you pull Scvs or risk bunker in the natural? No you have to bunker in the main to be safe Zealot would have killed the scv in natural then next comes the stalker that is how OP 1 proxy gate is vs Terran.
Not gimmick to death good Toss make fast DT do this all the time because it stops the Terran 2 base allin, if you go fast raven your push is too slow , you also need cyclone before first tank or you die to oracles.
By the time you have everything you need to push them they can easily defend 3rd base.
The actual counter that would have killed the Protoss is a 1 base allin with Tanks Marines and a Raven, good job figuring that out when everything is proxy hidden and scans tell you nothing.
Ok then you decide to macro you die they are ahead, by the time you have a 3rd they will have a 4th and be ready to Aclick your 3rd with a massive army.
You seriously believe TVP is balanced? Then how the hell do i have 76% winrate TVP when i am noob Toss?
And why is it if it is balanced that almost EVERY SINGLE Protoss i inspect after a game PVT is their best winrate (usually by far) ???
And they also have the Cannon Rush, which can be extremely difficult to defend against. If you don’t have combat units available, stopping it with SCVs alone can be almost impossible.
When playing TvP always open double gas factory expand. It is the standard and safest build vs toss. It literally hardcounters so many things - proxy gate, cannon rush, proxy oracle. You have fast factory, fast cyclone, fast 2nd depo to wall off entrance to your main. With this opener i completely skip SCV scout. Reaper only checks for proxies and if protoss opens normally gate expand or gate-cyber expand, you push with your cyclone, handful of marines and medivac. Later you add liberator, tank and keep pumping marines. This gave me lot of victories at D2 level.
Repair the wall and make more marines. Why do u have a bunker vs that? Then get a hellbat or 2, depending on if its heavy zealot or stalkers. If it’s stalkers u need marauders but zealots spam needs hellbats.
Hold the aggression, plan for holding it and have a pre-built nat then adapt to whatever is going on in the gamestate.
As Terran you’re basically HotS Protoss. Ur job is to hold then explode.
100% agree. Basic math can tell you that Terran is far behind Protoss, and probably Zerg too. A good change would be to have the 350 mineral CC, and even then they would still probably lag behind.
IMO the best idea would be to just give them an extra worker (15 supply start then becomes 16).
Also, the age old issue of Protoss Proxy is still there. Can’t take the game seriously when Zealot and cannon rush still exists. If we’re being honest, Zerg hatch proxy shouldn’t exist either. Or ZvZ spine crawler rush.
You dont understand the Zealot arrives to kill the bunker in the natural before it is finished, if you focus fire the Zealot he kills the SCV, then you have to pull more Scvs just to finish the bunker.
It is designed to completely destroy standard Terran opener.
You basically have to build bunker the second first marine is finished extremely early to be safe crippling the build.
If you focus fire the Zealot the stalker will arrived and kill your second SCV, allready its a total mess you either have to pull like 6 SCVS or bunker in your main just to be safe VS Proxy gate.
And it does not end there then they go DTS stopping you from pushing completely forcing you into a macro game where they are allready ahead.
You wlll see this all the time vs 4k+ Toss they abuse every trick in the book making sure you cant push are you are behind.
Below 4k they never make DTS, higher up all the time they completely shut you down or force you to waste all of your scans which you have 2 or 3 maximum on 2 orbitals.
DTS + Blink stalkers literally shuts down everything Terran can do early except fast cloaked banshee which is pretty much allin, you really wanna gamble on that when you dont even know they are going DTS yet?
If you save your scans they are spamming chronoboosted probes your lost.
And while Terran has to waste precious scans when they already have lower worker count, Toss is flying a hallucinated phoenix seing everything for free every 30 seconds.
The matchup is totally broken in this patch.
Thats why Terrans pros cheese almost every game in Korea in this pactch,
Mauraduer proxy rax or 3 rax proxy allin, horrible way to have to play to have the best chance.
For anyone that has any doubts here is a replay i destroyed barcode Terran doing standard build vs my Proxy gate.
He beat me on the first game where i did standard build i am total noob toss did not handle the widowmine drop well (great map for it) didnt lose almost any probes but i pulled probes away for too long and didn’t macro properly after it.
Second game i proxy gate send first Zealot to kill his SCV building CC, he is trying to kill the Zealot with his marines but then my stalker arrives he has no bunker it is extremely early he GG and leave the game.
And this is a Terran miles better than my Toss which he showed on the first game i should not be able to beat a Terran like this so easily.
The solution is this without reverting too 300 cc , Terran gets 1 free bunker per orbital command or 1 free bunker at the start of the game.
Replay https drop.sc replay 27572826
:// / / in the blanks
TvP is so frustrating. I feel Terran has no counters in the mu in the early game. In order to counter stalkers it’s a huge commitment to get maruaders which in response Protoss can just make zealots or have built a starport. Also, it’s almost funny that in Plat a Protoss can almost win at any point by just making DT.
Against protoss they’re not in a good spot, true. But that’s mostly because Protoss was wildly overtuned on 5.0.14 and 5.0.15 against both races, rather than Terran being bad.
Against Zerg, Terran is completely fine.
Removing strategies is a bad thing to do in any matchup. We don’t want every game to be the same, that’s just stupid.
That’s a decent way of putting it. Except you never really get to get out on the map, and the Protoss ends up on 9 bases while you have 4.
I’d still rather play this patch than the 8 worker start though.
SCV scout on 17/18. Problem solved. Suddenly, you know they’ve proxied you, and you have a wall up and are expanding in your main base where they can’t kill your scv, and you can throw up a bunker earlier so you have better defensive options to work with.
Additionally, if the build is designed to abuse the meta, don’t play meta. That’s also another option.
Which you can do if you scv scout. It’s a strategical decision you’re making if you don’t do that, as is going marine first instead of opening with a Reaper - which you can use to get information and scout what’s going on from your opponent.
SCV and reaper are your best friend in the early game.
Blink stalkers do limit a ton of build order options from Terran, I’ll give you that; every build you do has to be able to handle blink because of how strong it is and how early it can hit. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t options.
Fast stim timings and tank pushes are the two most common ones, which blink can handle, but doesn’t necessarily handle well. Charge deals with both of these a lot better.
Energy recharge is an issue, yes, and this is a big reason why. And it’s roughly every 45 seconds in tandem with natural energy regeneration rate and energy recharge’s cool-down.
The solution has nothing to do with making CCs cheaper, it’s completely unnecessary.
Energy Recharge is the primary problem. All you’re trying to do is fix the problem by causing other problems. At best, you’re attempting to treat a symptom rather than looking at the root cause.
You haven’t been 4k since prior to 2019. Currently you’re hovering around 3.5k as terran, and 3.1k as protoss.
DTs aren’t that common, though Blink definitely is. Proxy gateway cheeses are extremely holdable. Annoying, sure. But holdable. SCV scout on 17/18. Makes all the difference. And then reaper scout if you know their gate is at home, not proxied, to get the follow up information on what their tech is. Otherwise, build marines to hold the early proxy (or you can still build the reaper for the follow up scout after you hold their initial pressure).
This is a Terran who’s MMR is plat 3, against your Protoss, which is roughly 3.1k according to sc2pulse. Neither of you are exactly playing well, but let me go through the replay for you.
I tried to go into the replay, it wouldn’t let me load it, so I’m doing this based off the information available in sc2replaystats’ menu.
Based off the fact that there’s no dip from pulling a worker off the mineral line, he’s not SCV scouting - which against protoss, is the first mistake.
With no scout, he blindly goes marine first, which is the second mistake, and builds on the low ground instead of the high ground - given that he’s got exactly zero information, this is extremely greedy; greed which is immediately punished by him losing the SCV and stalling out the command center.
this is followed up by him going into an early 2nd gas, for some reason, and then a factory, at which point he supply blocks himself at 23 supply, and dies because he hasn’t reacted at all to the pressure you’re putting on.
This is a classic case of bad player getting punished for playing stupid.
It’s about 3-4 seconds, actually, depending on the randomness factor. Alert triggers when the burrow starts, which takes 2.1-2.5 seconds, and then a further 1-1.43 seconds to target and fire.
If nothing else is going on (no other pressure in a different location, no army battles etc), and you can’t react, that’s on you.
The matchup is definitely difficult. It wasn’t much better on 8 workers, but it was better, if only because protoss players also had to shoot themselves in the foot, and because the 300 cc provided such an insane buff in both matchups that it was, frankly, broken. TvP was still pretty unforgiving though.
12 workers feels way better to me, but TvP is a matchup that’s generally hell for the terran and has been for the better part of about 2 years now, and made significantly worse with energy recharge. Energy recharge is the main issue IMO.
4k was my best MMR from 2016 , the website does not track stats before. When i was much better and younger i sat at rank 1 Masters alot so it must have been around 4300-4600 peak.
Proxy gate followed by DTS is a pretty standard anti meta build used by Protoss that know how to abuse it which are Protoss higher up.
Even though i run into 4k + smurfs all the time on live, on PTR i have played tons of them i have played 5500 Players on PTR and the purpose of the DTS is it wastes scans and stop the Terran 2 base SCVS pull allin which is Terrans best shot right now.
The only downside to the DTs is they would be in trouble if Terran went fast cloaked Banshee but they know Terran is not going to take the risk gambling on that.
So yeah i see it all the time Toss just use builds which destroy current Terran Meta and they all just copy each other , so they expect 2 base allin they are going DTS.
They expect Terran to fast expand then try to bunker main they go proxy gate, Terran can easily hold the natural with a very fast bunker which puts them behind in production.
Stalkers can also just walk straight past it if its badly placed depending on map.
Yeah like i said with proxy gate if you reaper first you can die very easily, you have to not only expand in the main but bunker in the main to be 100% safe.
Or risk marine micro vs 1-2 stalkers before your cylone pops out.
Ive been playing this game a long time TVP is much harder for the Terran players than the Protoss.
The replay i posted shows how easy it is for Protoss to win the game in the first few minuites just by a proxy gate if the Terran expands in the natural.
Being forced to expand in the main with a bunker is allready putting Terran way behind.
Your talking about nerfing Toss energy and that might screw up PVZ which i belive is pretty balanced ATM.
IMo both TVP and TVZ Terran is the underdog , alot worse in TVP but TVZ is almost balanced with Zerg slight favourites because if they defend correctly.
So instead of messing with PVZ with energy changes , 1 small buff for Terran a free bunker per CC would mean they can expand safer without getting even further behind and actually expand in the natural just like Zerg and Toss.
I see nothing wrong with it and it would fix alot.
1 Bunker free per CC but they cant get any refund salvaging it ofc.
