Sick of watching 1 player with 12 Thors take out all 4 players armies in 4v4… Why has this not been fixed, reduce their dmg vs ground or something, wtf…
Thors are fine, the problem is either you or your teammates.
8 Likes
Spoken like a complete newb that only plays Terran and doesn’t even know how to use Thors correctly.
You haven’t learned how to counter a unit. That is your problem, not a problem with anyone else. Solutions have even been explained to you on other threads.
You literally haven’t made a post yet that I have seen where you aren’t complaining about something.
2 Likes
Spoken like someone who’s literally bronze.
2 Likes
if 4 armies are losing to 12 thors - that’s about 72 supply worth of thors by the way - you’re all engaging one by one, with a severe upgrade disadvantage, or you’re not building any counter units. You (and the people you’re playing with most likely) are genuinely just bad.
3 Likes
use mass hydra ling vs. thors, your welcome.
Sorry we needed to fix infestor burrow and baneling damage before we fix units that take no skill or micro to use and are extremely efficient.
To bad its counter is hard countered by mineral unit.
It’s sadly so strong that even mass counters its counter.
When buffed Thor air they should nerf its ground.
I’m happy to agree that the Thor’s numbers are a little silly and the game would be meaningfully better if its anti-ground attack was chipped to like 27 (+3) instead of 30 (+3) or didn’t have base armor. But it’s only a little silly; because the unit has plenty of weaknesses as it stands even in straight-up fights, and its total lack of mobility makes it a strategy that’s easy to predate on.
Carriers at least fly, even ignoring Strategic Recall.
12 Thors is 72 supply and 6,000 resources. Let’s assume they have 3/3, just for maximum ugh.
If I throw that army into the unit tester; against all sorts of armies -
6 Disruptors and 25 Zealots costs 4300 resources, and if the Disruptor shots just… hit, three Thors each, something that’s pretty easy and gets easier the tighter the arena, the Thor army does sometimes win but is completely crippled.
This does require the Zealots to have +2 Armor, since otherwise they’d die in only two attacks, and +3 weapons to actually get through the Thor’s net 4 armor.
20 Zealots and 5 Immortals with +3 Attack and +2 Armor almost win, despite being only 60 supply.
16 Zealots and 8 Immortals, or even 12 Immortals just straight up win super hard.
Even a mixed gateway composition - 5 High Templar, 15 Stalkers, 15 Zealots - does a fairly good job at stymieing the Thor’s health and counts. It does lose, but it kills half the Thors consistently and is clearly not an army that’s good against Thors.
10 Marines, 10 Marauders, 10 Siege Tanks, and 5 Medivacs take only a small amount fewer resources (5500), but actually defeat the Thor army - though entirely because +3 attack Siege Tanks are crazy - I had most of the fights go with four of the tanks not in range. All the Bio does get completely destroyed but that’s expected. The Medivacs also don’t help.
10 Hellbats and 15 Siege Tanks slaughter it with no Tank losses. This holds for basically any set up of “15 Tanks with something in front”.
I was surprised to learn that 30 Marauders loses very hard. It’s no contest and kind of embarrassing.
I didn’t actually have better luck with any non-Tank composition besides Marauders though. Air units don’t work, it feels like cheating to say “use Thors”, and the current Cyclone just doesn’t do enough up-front DPS.
140 +3 speed/adrenal Zerglings also lose off creep! This result surprised me pretty extensively, I won’t lie. It’s a super close fight, though, and is about the worst case. If there’s some creep on the approach to the Thors, they just barely win, despite being only 3,500 resources. They also win if there’s just 10 more Zerglings.
10 Hydralisks with range and just +1 attack supported by 100 +3 speed/adrenal Zerglings consistently have a close win off creep. The range upgrade is absolutely necessary as otherwise the Thors will strike the Hydras too often to reliably claim victory. If they have +2 or +3 attack it’s fairly handily the Zerg’s fight.
However, if the Thors are in a tiny choke, then the Zealots and Zerglings are just about useless. But in those cases, you can much more easily use ranged units, because the Thor’s sheer fatness makes it such that only the front line of them can retaliate.
25 Stalkers with two Shield Batteries can almost win in a choke that’s only wide enough for two Thors, for example; despite getting absolutely wrecked if the field is wider.
If you have 10 Thors that are supplemented by 10 Hellbats, though, I wasn’t able to find a more-efficient army for Protoss or Zerg that won consistently without lots of/difficult micro. Since I’m just re-stacking and a-moving the Thors, I felt like microing the other army well was a bit silly since I can’t actually do both sets of micro at once. Good Disruptor hits for Protoss were the only answer, since you can’t just zap the Hellbats without also getting the Zealots and Storm doesn’t deal enough to the Hellbats; for Zerg using Neural or Abduct tipped things favorably enough but besides that a Hydralisk-heavy blob with 5 roaches was my best result and it still left 4 Thors alive.
PLEASE use the Unit Test Map. It’s not updated for the current game state, so ie. Cyclones and Medivacs don’t have their proper upgrades, but it’s almost completely accurate and it’s very easy to check these things.
1 Like
You’d think so but it’s usually 3 engaging and me rounding and countering from the hills, they take out the 3 allies in one big mess then I pull back and manage to snipe most of them off before they get to the base, but… then we are unarmed, I managed to re-max because I make way too many production buildings, but then the dudes 3 allies come in and finish up the job 3v1…
I’m surprised by this, I usually need 3 to 1 Immortals to Thors due to the range difference, are they approaching on flat terrain with no choaks? Can you edit the map to have 7-8 wide immortal width approach with some cliffs or something? Also keep in mind the Thors will be 3-3 and the Protoss probably isn’t going to have full ground upgrades, base case scenerio, maybe 2-1-3 around then.
Yeah tanks are the only viable counter, but they are also Terran, so I’m not sure that counts.
Yeah the most effective counter is to run straight to the enemy base and start killing factories, but… Protoss heavy air or BC’s is the only thing that can manage it, and both are just as slow as the Thors, unless you teleport the BC’s in but… once again, how is Terran the only race that can counter it’s own unit… even then while you might take out the factories, you and you allies are going to lose all 4 mains 3 outta 4 rounds on it… which is game over so…
First of all I play Toss, also, that doesn’t work, they kill 2 lings per shot, each arm kills one, that’s why I keep trying to tell ppl there is a glitch in their ground attack that’s causing it to deal double damage…
This was the thing I tested the most on, yes.
Please note that even the Shield Battery test was not affected much by the difference between +0 and +3 Shields. It’s not the easiest math to check, but -
+3 Thors deal 39 damage each cannon.
Zealots have 50 shields, so their shields always break after two hits. Their 100 life, however, reduces three hits - So at base the shots are 39 & 11+27, 38 & 38. That’s totals 103 damage to the Zealot’s life, so +1 armor won’t save them (it just brings it to 100), but any second defensive upgrade does get you there.
I did, in fact, test on this requirement. It was even the first map I tested on when decreasing the Zealot count.
The Immortals did better the narrower the play field was - as there were fewer Thors for them to choose from and thus fired at the same targets more often. One exceptionally lucky test in the narrow choke ended with 6 immortals alive.
This is in stark contrast to the Zealots and Zerglings, where I was able to manipulate fights such that even 200 Zerglings on-creep were barely able to overcome 12 Thors.
Okay, so, I know this sounds a bit stupid, but have you tried building ten Gateways and a Warp Prism?
Zealots are extremely good at this job and require zero attention.
Please open a unit tester and put 12 +3/+3 Thors against 12 +2/+0/+3 Immortals? Six Disruptors with some Zealots? You have answers.
By the time your opponent fields such a silly army you should be able to make your own silly army. If your army is unable to contest a given army, you should be making your own overall army more complex / nuanced and able to actually do something in those worst case scenarios.
For example you don’t need 20 Carriers, so a better army would be 10 Carriers and 15 Void Rays.
I have tried to reproduce this in many circumstances and was unable. Whether I, the AI, or even a friend are controlling the Thors, in the unit tester, a game with mods, or a standard game; the Thor’s rate of ling killing was constant whether the Thor killed the Zergling with the first shot or needed both.
I was also surprised to learn that the second cannon shot goes off - on empty air - even if the Zergling dies to the first now.
3 Likes
That is false. The create-persistent effects like the Thor’s ground attack do not have the ability to switch targets. When the Thor attacks a target, it will always use both shots on the target even if it dies to the first shot.
Thors can actually waste shots because of this, even though their attack doesn’t have a projectile.
For instance, a fully upgraded Thor will kill Zealots in 5 hits (2 per attack, so 3 attacks), but if you have 5 Thors, it is possible for all 5 of the Thors to fire at the same Zealot, wasting half of their damage even though 3 Thors would have been sufficient.
This is one of four reasons why Thors tend to perform worse against ground than their stats suggest. The full list:
- Thors can waste up to half of their shots against ground (mentioned above).
- Thors tend to overkill on a lot of ground targets due to their high burst, so their DPS is misleading. In practice, the Thor’s DPS is usually much lower than calculated.
- The Thor’s large size heavily limits their DPS density. Even when Thors have a range advantage on the opponent, their bulk often makes it difficult for many Thors to get into range to attack. Eliwan’s tests with Immortals is just an example that confirms this.
- Thors have a very high damage point on their ground attack, so any attempt to micro Thors in combat will significantly lower their effective DPS against ground. The damage point is a wait time that applies to a unit before its first attack. The damage point gets factored out of the cooldown for subsequent attacks so that it doesn’t affect a unit’s overall DPS while it is constantly attacking, but every time a unit stops firing completely (i.e. runs out of targets, moves, enters/exits a transport, switches weapons to attack different targets) it has to wait for the damage point again to start shooting. Most units (especially Marines and Marauders) have low damage points so that you can micro them often without losing DPS, but the Thor’s ground damage point is extremely high (0.831 in editor or 0.593571 seconds in real time). As a result, Thors lose at least 39% of their DPS against ground when you try to micro them between attacks.
2 Likes
They do if it 1 hit ko’s the target as part of the first part of the 2 part attack.
Why would I have 20 carriers?
Take 3-5 Thors 2-1, a ramp, and 40 Zerglings 0-0.
No they do not. At least two other people (myself and Eliwan) on this thread have directly tested your claim on the LOTV unit tester, and your claim is absolutely false. Thors do not retarget their second hit if the target dies. They just fire the second attack at the dead target, completely wasting the damage.
The unit tester is based on the multiplayer mod, so there is no difference between the way that units perform on the tester and how they perform in multiplayer.
And this is supposed to prove what exactly? These conditions do not change the fact that Thors do not retarget that second shot.
The only thing that this proves is that an idiot who uses too few Zerglings, without upgrades, in a chokepoint where they have no room to attack, will lose a fight to a much more expensive and upgraded ranged army. It is literally an example of a bad player being bad.
2 Likes
Citation Needed
20 characters also needed
3 Likes