Fix terran versus protoss

General Discussion
1

Seriously, fix TvP.
It is incredibly toss favored, and this hasn’t been addressed for WAY too long. You were happy to take away any Terran cheese/late game that was deemed too strong(reaper building dmg, ravens), but you won’t address the complete circus that is TvP now. Proxy shield battery tempests? The interaction from Dark Templar(they barely miss a scan and now you’re screwed). It’s a freaking joke. Please look at how your community mods this game, see what they like, and incorporate that into your ladder. Or to the community, stop playing ladder, and look for mods with ladder.

If you’re not going to fix TvP, stop forcing players to play it. Allow players to select a race that they don’t want to play, similar to the map pool.

So much of this matchup makes no sense. Why BCS cost 6 supply, and is the single most expensive unit, yet is the absolute WORSE tier 3 unit? Why do stalkers shut down medivacs SOO HARD, to the point drops feel useless. Why did the raven get nerfed to hell(PDD seeker missle), yet retains the requirements of a better raven(tech lab, long build time, high gas cost)?!?! Why can toss never be punished for being out of position since they can warp back home? How come they can reinforce right on my front line, thus COMPLETELY negating my defenders advantage? Why do marines get so hard countered by so many different splash options, all that require different responses? Why does high templar have a f****** auto attack?!?!? Why do you refuse to make mech viable in this matchup, despite the fact that THAT would be different gameplay, and the community wants it? And that’s only scratching the surface of the complete s***show that is TvP

It seems the devs have never bothered to take an in depth look at TvP and it shows. This matchup is THE most hated matchup to play. You constantly feel like you’re behind. You can’t turtle, but toss can turtle. You can’t be aggro, but toss can be aggro. You’re behind economically until you hit 3 bases, and that’s ONLY if toss loses focus on economy.

A super easy fix for TvP that wouldn’t affect other matchups: adjust damage vs shielded units. Quick, simple, and to the point.

RNG for scvs building is f****** stupid and no one wants that. It’s a clear disadvantage just for being a race.

Remove the redundant unit that is disruptors from the game. Give terran better mobile detection. Remove armor tag from hellbats. Increase seige tank dmg vs shielded units. Units warped in from warp prism should have some negative effect, like a longer warp in time, or much longer cooldown for gateways.

I know for a fact that the devs were all toss players or getting paid behind the scene, because there is no other reason I can think of why toss was given so much, and why this matchup was never looked at.

TLDR;
FIX TVP OR STOP FORCING THIS TO BE A MU WE HAVE TO PLAY.

4 Likes
2

Why do toss have a super hard counter(tempests) to an already bad unit(bcs), that can then be used to counter so much other stuff? The community agreed that flying tanks is broken, so you make it a toss unit?!?

Seriously, it was better with an 8 worker start because all the toss players left. All going back to a 12 worker start did was bring back toss, who are all cheesing with whatever strategy they want! If I have fewer army, and a weaker army, how do you expect me not to lose?!?!?!?!?

3

because that is the hard counter, and designed that way, just like tempest are weak to vikings. your using the wrong unit to fight tempest. even mass libs are better. or you just aint using bcs right.

the toss didnt leave cause of the 8 workers, they left cause of the warpgate changes.

4

Why can stalkers blink out of a yamato cannon?
Why can stalkers blink and easily shut down medivacs?
Why can stalkers blink up and down cliffs, when other races require a dropship or a specialized unit(reaper)
Why is mass stalker a legit strategy?
Why can they blink after taking damage?
YOU LEAVE NO ROOM FOR PUNISHMENT

5

You’re not understanding the point. The BC already sucks, and then you put it in the grave by having a unit that completely counters it. That matchup will never see BCS. Also, the difference is that tempests can fight back, and win against vikings, we know this due to a well known cheese called “proxy tempest shield battery”

Toss players were leaving due to the worker change, because they had to learn new builds. I was on the ladder before and after the change

6

bla bla bla bla bla. get better.

4 Likes
8

Anywho, this matchup is trash. Please fix, or allow players to deselect 1 race from the queue for ranked, similar to maps.

9

The absolute worst part about this matchup, is that IT DOESN’T FEEL FUN!
Think of any game you play that you like. You reasonably go in assuming you have a chance of success. With this MU, that assumption is not there. If a game isn’t fun, why would your community play it? Mark my words, normal sc2 ladder will continue fading, as mods pick up the slack of the devs

10

This really does look like a case where the OP is mad because he/she doesn’t know how to handle Tempests.

Vikings are usually enough to beat Tempests, and Thors are an option if you are going mech.

The moment you talk about “tiers”, it shows that you don’t understand how this game works at all.

Units fill specific roles in compositions, they are not meant to simply eclipse everything that came before them, and most early-game units remain viable throughout the game, regardless of the point in time where they are first unlocked.

Battlecruisers themselves are worth 6-supply. They are a general DPS & damage-soaking unit that outtrades most units apart from some specific counters (Corruptors, Vikings, Stalkers, and Tempests).

Battlecruisers work best against units like Marines that deal damage in small bursts and have low armor.

The damage-soaking potential should not be discounted, as it can be very valuable in mixed compositions if/when you can get the opponent to focus on Battlecruisers instead of other units. For instance, Vikings normally need to kite and focus-fire to beat Battlecruisers, but a group comprised of Battlecruisers and Vikings can beat an equal-supply group of just Battlecruisers without the need to kite. I just tested this to confirm, and the mixed composition won the fight even though I only used Yamato Cannons from the monogroup side.

Any anti-air unit can do this.

Because both of those abilities were toxic and couldn’t be balanced to a point where they were satisfactory without players just massing Ravens to abuse them.

That is what happens when you give casters a spell with no diminishing returns.

The current iteration of the Raven is better in terms of how it affects the game.

I’m not a fan of the tech-lab requirement on the Raven, but that is because of other factors:

  • Terran has no other reason to use a Tech Lab Starport.
  • Terran doesn’t need more than a few Ravens at any given point.

The Raven definitely is worth its resource cost.

Because Bio’s DPS is high enough to roll over most compositions without those splash units. When Bio reaches critical mass, the opponent usually requires splash damage to fight back.

The splash damage units typically require different responses (Ghosts, Vikings, micro, etc) because otherwise it would be too easy for Terran to disable the counters.

The High Templar’s auto-attack damage is so insignificant that there are practically no cases where a player loses a game because of it. The auto-attack exists to make micro a bit easier and that is it.

The better question is why Blizzard hasn’t extended this to all of the casters yet.

As a mech player myself, I would argue that Blizzard has already done most of what it can do on that front.

Most Factory and Starport units are in a great spot performance-wise. There isn’t much that you can do to further improve these units without simply making them overpowered; and the remaining issues probably have more to do with the build-up and holding expansions rather than any problems with the units.

All of that said, I have tried to improve the situation somewhat in my own mod, mostly focusing on the Hellbat, Raven, and Transformation Servos:

TerranicIIRandomTweakMod3 - Map Showcase - SC2 Forums

The goal is to make mech viable, not overpowered.

Hellbats are light, not armored; and there are very few cases that would be improved by removing that particular tag.

40 +30 versus armored is enough.

3 Likes
11

Gonna make this response short because I’m sick of trolls:
"This really does look like a case where the OP is mad because he/she doesn’t know how to handle Tempests.

Vikings are usually enough to beat Tempests, and Thors are an option if you are going mech."

Tempests outside your base with shield battery beats vikings…Like I mentioned. That’s why that cheese exists in the first place…

“The moment you talk about “tiers”, it shows that you don’t understand how this game works at all.”

Tiers absolutely exist in this game, denying that indicates gold level knoweldge…

"battlecruisers themselves are worth 6-supply. They are a general DPS & damage-soaking unit that outtrades most units apart from some specific counters (Corruptors, Vikings, Stalkers, and Tempests).

Battlecruisers work best against units like Marines that deal damage in small bursts and have low armor."

There is a reason you don’t see BCS in TvP

“Any anti-air unit can do this.”

Every antiair does not shut down medivacs…Because most antiair can’t blink…Marines can’t insta kill a medivac unless the medivac player mismicros…

“That is what happens when you give casters a spell with no diminishing returns.”

High templars exist…

“The High Templar’s auto-attack damage is so insignificant that there are practically no cases where a player loses a game because of it. The auto-attack exists to make micro a bit easier and that is it.”

B******* or else infestors would have it too. It makes the user require less micro. It absolutely doe HAVE an impact

“As a mech player myself, I would argue that Blizzard has already done most of what it can do on that front.”

Lol, again, there’s a reason you don’t see mech v toss…

“Hellbats are light, not armored; and there are very few cases that would be improved by removing that particular tag.”

This one is true. I meant to remove light tag.

“40 +30 versus armored is enough.”
Wrong, again a reason you only see tanks build defensively in TvP. Plus the long seige up time cost

12

Fix Toss, or make it so players don’t have to play this matchup. IT IS NOT FUN

13

Is that isens alternative account? This is so much nonsense crying.

That wasnt the reason at all?

Builds without their core mechanic.

3 Likes
14

Can’t tell the difference between criticism and crying?
Sounds about right to me

2 Likes
16

We know for a fact that there is another patch coming. We don’t know anything about it though.

100% this. Also looks like he’s complaining about tempests when making BCs against them, which is rarely a good idea.

3 Likes
17

Users can’t read what else is new.
I never said I want to make BCS against tempests… I asked why make a unit to counter an already bad unit…
Please read before posting

18

People dont like reading walls of texts with nonsense crying.

2 Likes
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Also, it’s very weird to not read something and then reply to it…

21

Critical mass of vikings will still obliterate tempests even through shields. Also vikings produce 2 at a time, and cost a lot less than tempests.

Not in the standard sense; this game isn’t a game focused around tiers, it’s a game of counters, not tiers. Otherwise things like lings would die to thors.

That reason is because BCs require a critical mass and 3/3 upgrades to be good, and that takes a LOT of time to get to.

Capped at 100 damage on feedback, and storm doesn’t stack, and you can escape its radius. Meanwhile, the old Raven HSM applied 100 damage instantly, in rapid succession, allowing for literally thousands of damage to be applied almost simultaneously with little drawback. Which was why it was changed.

They had it in 5.0.16, and honestly considering both ghosts and HTs have an auto attack, infestors should too.

Yeah, and skytoss isn’t it, as, ironically, skytoss is the one thing that Mech terran actually deals really well with. The reason is mostly related to Zealots, disruptors and immortals being brutally strong against ground-mech.

It’s definitely enough. You also see tanks in early timing attacks as well, but that aside the main problem with tanks in TvP is that Zealots are very tanky and tanks friendly fire. It’s not a damage issue at all.

Massive Air means:

Carrier
Tempest
Broodlord
BC

and also includes Colossus, since colossus can be targeted by air units.

The tempest isn’t just for BCs; it just happens that BCs are terrans capital ship.

Your “criticism” is mostly founded in feeling, and not in reality. So yes, this is crying.

Frankly, most of your criticisms are inherently just… wrong. On so many levels.

3 Likes
22

You said that people cant read.

Maybe its hard to read rambling gibberish that was typed when tears poured out of your eyes.

If you would make your points without Walls of texts of unhinged emotions, people might get what you wanted to Tell them. And maybe they are more inclined to actually have a discussion with you or help you if you dont act like a whiny whimp

2 Likes
23

Another quick one:

“Critical mass of vikings will still obliterate tempests even through shields. Also vikings produce 2 at a time, and cost a lot less than tempests.”

If someone is outside your base with tempests and vikings, you won’t get to critical mass. You’ll keep getting picked off. It’s not like they just sit there while doing nothing…

“Not in the standard sense; this game isn’t a game focused around tiers, it’s a game of counters, not tiers. Otherwise things like lings would die to thors.”

Your only statement earlier was that thinking tiers exist is wrong, when you just admitted now that they do. For sure Tier 1 can beat tier 3, but that doesn’t mean that tiers don’t exist in this game…

“That reason is because BCs require a critical mass and 3/3 upgrades to be good, and that takes a LOT of time to get to.”

I know it’s more that just that. If that were the case, pros would still use BCS in TvP. They don’t because that unit doesn’t fit within that MU.

“Capped at 100 damage on feedback, and storm doesn’t stack, and you can escape its radius. Meanwhile, the old Raven HSM applied 100 damage instantly, in rapid succession, allowing for literally thousands of damage to be applied almost simultaneously with little drawback. Which was why it was changed.”

The seeker missle was not instant, and could be microed against… Most of this is just wrong…

“They had it in 5.0.16, and honestly considering both ghosts and HTs have an auto attack, infestors should too.”

Or remove autoattack from all spellcasters except ghosts, which makes sense on them. It was added to toss to give them an unnecessary handicap when it comes to micro.

“Yeah, and skytoss isn’t it, as, ironically, skytoss is the one thing that Mech terran actually deals really well with. The reason is mostly related to Zealots, disruptors and immortals being brutally strong against ground-mech.”

Kinda proving my point on this one, so I’ll leave this one alone

“It’s definitely enough. You also see tanks in early timing attacks as well, but that aside the main problem with tanks in TvP is that Zealots are very tanky and tanks friendly fire. It’s not a damage issue at all.”

This point is somewhat ok. It is an issue of friendly fire, but also of seige up time, and being hard countered. Increase enemy dmg would actually help in this instance…

“The tempest isn’t just for BCs; it just happens that BCs are terrans capital ship.”
Exactly. And not to mention thors on paper counter it, but range vs range…
Broodlords are different because they morph from corrupters, which counter the tempests. Usually you overpower the tempests, then morph into broodlords, so you don’t have to worry about that counter much. If we’re being honest, a mass range tempests does incredibly well against more units than just capital air units…

"Your “criticism” is mostly founded in feeling, and not in reality. So yes, this is crying.

Frankly, most of your criticisms are inherently just… wrong. On so many levels."

My criticism is founded in playing this game for over a decade, and chatting with other users/clans/professionals/etc.

You’re a silly boy to think this is all my opinion

1 Like