Well would you look at that… A BC transition is possible… I remember 1-2 weeks ago some TCF boys were crying about this not being possible or ideal. Also someone said BCs were bad against tempests. Interesting. Looks like they’re pretty good after all.
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That’s not the only match from today with BC transition. Kas have done one today as well. Cool stuff. As a Protoss, I must say Tempests are so beautiful when they explode from BCs fire 
BCs are one of the strongest units in the game. Zerg can shut them down hard late game because of their casters. Especially infestors.
But Protoss has no real answer for mass BCs late game other than dont let the Terran get there. BCs with Yamato trade well with every Toss unit including Tempests and even Void Ray if properly used. Luckily BCs are expensive and take a long time to build so it usually is not an issue in PvT.
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Nope, Protoss has the strongest late game.
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Just make more stalker after seeing that many BCs should do.
BCs also have trouble against corruptors. That’s why you don’t see them too often in the late game.
No, Protoss “gets” to their late-game earlier than Terran.
Terran has a harder time transitioning into their late-game; since Terran’s late-game units have to break a certain critical mass for it to really become powerful and that is a much slower process.
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There is no evidence whatsoever T has a stronger late game even if they got there (which is likely almost impossible at high level).
You really think tempests and carriers beat BCs? You are way out of the loop
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It is possible but takes a lot more time,. proving that mass BC can actually win? Good one Columbus. Let us know how many times you will mass it from bio upgrade. Protoss has to be dumb to let a Terran mass them from bio when they will have their tempests and deathball earlier. Thats what Rail did, his problem.
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You gotta stop lying. Where did I say in my post what beats what? I haven’t given you a thing on what I think specifically. So please stop the slander, otherwise it might come back at you.
Terran late game is a lot stronger, problem is getting there since your upgrades and production need to be setup for crap like BC Mine Lib Marine with 2-3 Ghosts for EMP is not late game, it’s super late game.
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A Battlecruiser-heavy or Liberator-heavy army does have the advantage over Protoss. After reaching a certain critical mass, either unit will overrun Protoss ground armies and out-trade most Protoss air armies. Tempests have some ability to compete without TJ or by using Storms to soften up Liberators or other small air units that try to approach; but Terran can potentially out-compete those defenses with well-place Tactical Jumps and Yamato Cannons, or with support from Thors or Ghosts+Vikings.
The problem is getting to that point:
- Bio has a hard time transitioning into Battlecruisers because it doesn’t normally use that infrastructure and it relies on very different mechanics to trade effectively: Battlecruisers work best in a meat-shield + long-range artillery model like traditional mech; where DPS is preserved over the course of the fight by stalling and dividing damage across that durable front-line for as long as possible to gain a long-term edge. Bio relies heavily on mobility to avoid damage with squishy units, and doesn’t have the range to effectively use a meat-shield or the health to serve as one.
- Traditional mech has a hard time getting to late-game because it has a consistent mobility disadvantage and relies quite heavily on critical mass to avoid getting overwhelmed. This makes securing enough expansions to get to that end-game very difficult.
- Battle-mech is volatile, and it has scaling issues that forces it to make an awkward transition out of Cyclones and into traditional mech/sky at some point in the game. The transition is much easier than from Bio since just about everything (infrastructure, units, upgrades) except the Cyclones can be reused; but since Battle-mech is so volatile the game will probably end one way or another before the person can make the transition.
Marines don’t seem to fit with Battlecruisers at all actually.
Bio-Ghost-Liberator (which can fit Bio’s playstyle much better) or mass Battlecruiser-mech army (operating like a traditional mech army) is more likely.
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I like how this argument gets used so often…“But but its incredibly difficult for Terran to get there but when they do, their army is stronger” yet people fail to see the issue with it.
If its so hard to get there, where do you get the top end (skill-wise) game samples to prove your claim that T’s late game army is much stronger? Please don’t use scrub games or games that are more than a year old for this.
In fact, even if you used those games, they rarely happen, how do you if its cuz BCs are just stronger or just Protoss haven’t played against that before, or a because it is a new patch, or because Protoss are caught off guard by an unusual build. We’ve seen Mech beat Protoss, are you going to say Mech is stronger than Toss army in midgame? Ofcourse not…For mass BCs your describing there have not been enough samples (at high enough level) and enough trials here for people to determine if that is true. It has to become a usual build for it to be validated. And right now that isn’t the case at all. However, I’ll say this, I haven’t tuned in much to pro games, so idk how many times its been used. Unless its used 30% of the time in that matchup, this claim remains un-validated. And frankly just looking at it unit wise, I see MANY MANY Protoss counters to this and how Protoss can easily beat this. But this is all theoretical.
A good example of this is back in the end heart of the swarm, when swarmhosts got the nerf hammer, where I and many people thought Mech was extremely overpowered vs Zerg (The degree of people suspecting it being overpowered vs Zerg is FAR, FAR worse than the current level in which people think mass BCs are overpowered vs Protoss, except PPP trolls like DankTemplar), but it turns out after playing enough games, mech is actually far less overpowered (still overpowered though) than I and many others thought and claimed. Life has shown it is beatable, Byul too, and even when they lost, a lot of them were extremely close games. But when mech was first used, these players were blown out of the waters, but after a few months, the games were much much closer than before because they learned to play against it. And mech at the time was a VALID build, used around 30% of the games in that matchup.
What does this mean then? You tell me. If my assumption of the context of your reply is incorrect, then why did you even bother saying something irrelevant to my topic?
To make things more ridiculous with your first reply, you add this. “There is no evidence whatsoever T has a stronger late game” then what, is there evidence that Protoss has the strongest late game? Far from so. You’re the one that needs to stop lying.
Not proof, just an example of it working. Also, what, you wanna keep massing bio to beat mass carrier/tempest/templar. T1 units > T3 I suppose.
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Yes you need to stop lying. All you are is a conglomeration of 1 sentence bs claims it seems.
It has been shown on numerous occasions. People have known for years that Tempests dont counter BCs. There have been numerous games where Maru vs Stats (or equivalent level players) play out an ultra late game match with BCs vs sky toss and Sky Toss can run but eventually they either get TJ’d on or Yamato’d to death.
It is just so rare because bio is so strong that it is unnecessary 90+% of the time and you already ahve fully upgraded bio. BCs scale immensely with upgrades so if you do get full air upgrades and enough tech lab starports (ultra late game) it is a viable option.
Hahaha let me just point out 2 things here. Should be clear as day to anyone with a brain why they should not waste any time making any post that has any substance for you.
- They have been shown on “numerous” occasions.
- “People have known for years that tempests don’t counter BCs”.
- Bio is so “strong”
Please continue.
There is no evidence whatsoever T has a stronger late game even if they got there (which is likely almost impossible at high level).
Terran can have due to mass CC and making mules for saving supply for more units. In extremely-lategame scenario, I can legit see Terran winning deathballs by sheer numbers alone, since you can use 20 scv and mules for 180 military supply or something.
But this is a dream scenario that needs what, 30 min-game?
What “issue”?
Terran’s end-game armies are powerful because of the shear amount of overlapping artillery-range damage, overlapping splash, and/or because of the durability of the Battlecruisers and Thors combined with inefficiently divided damage against them.
Each of those advantages scales can only be fully taken advantage of with a large army because they scale with army size. So again, in a competitive game the problem is getting there.
You don’t need a top-end game to see how strong a late-game army composition actually is. Not unless the skill floor for that army (minimum micro required to use it effectively) is very high; which is just not the case for Battlecruiser or Liberator based compositions.
In this case you can simply analyze the units involved:
Battlecruisers:
- Tempests rely entirely on staying out of range and kiting Battlecruisers for long periods in order to kill them. TJ + Yamato can prevent that, causing a wipe in favor of the Battlecruisers.
- Stalkers rely on a significant supply advantage in order to compete with Battlecruisers. That can only be achieved while the Battlecruiser count is still low. After the count ticks up, Stalkers won’t be able to obtain the supply advantage necessary to deal with them; and the Battlecruisers also scale up better large fights on top of that.
- Battlecruisers will out-compete Void Rays on equal supply. Ignoring Yamato for the moment, Battlecruisers have a strict edge when Prismatic Alignment is down, and Prismatic Alignment doesn’t actually last long enough for the Void Rays to deal with all of the Battlecruisers.
- Battlecruisers out-compete all other Protoss anti-air options, except perhaps Archons if the Battlecruisers teleport and stack up directly over them. In any other engagement the Battlecruisers can rip the Archons apart as they approach and easily win if they aren’t clumped up in a ridiculously tight ball.
Liberators:
- Straight up out-compete and devastate all Protoss ground unless the ground units circumvent the targeting zones. That circumvention ceases to be possible when there is a large number of Liberators with overlapping zones.
- Eventually out-competes all Protoss air because of the overlapping splash damage.
- Tempests can be out-competed by Vikings as long as those Vikings are not devastated by Storm first (hence Ghosts or using Liberation zones to try to zone out the HT in turn), or may be out-competed by Thors. There is of course more "give and take’ with Liberators than with Tempests though, since mass Battlecruisers can overwhelm the Protoss player’s defenses without support.
Essentially, Protoss lacks options that can compete with mass Battlecruiser or mass Liberator armies regardless how the Protoss units are used.
Terran can consistently deal with such armies using Vikings and Ravens; while Zerg has a choice of Corruptors, Viper support, and/or Infestors (Microbial Shroud, Neural, Fungal) to take apart Terran’s late-game armies.
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