It seems in PvZ, i can LITERALLY turtle on 3-4 bases, max on 3/3 carriers and literally a-move across the map. The only way i lost to zerg was to baneling busts and roach/ravager all-in with queen on my third. But even then, you give it when it starts going baddly, use voids to kill an expansion then recall home and defend at your nat while you’re still massing the critical carrier mass with high templars.
The PvZ lategame looks insanely hard for zerg, almost impossible at diamond-master rank.
Beating that style in a solid way or any way, really, usually involves getting a fast fourth or using vipers well. None of these things are going to happen until high GM. You’re supposed to win every game that you don’t die to some kinda queen all-in (should beat that, too, though, unless super small map). Has nothing to do with the void ray buff.
Facing mutas can be tricky/hard at times, if you’ve invested anything into ground, regardless of having 3 stargates or not.
That sounds like terrible balance tho doesn’t it?
I play Zerg at D3/D2, I admit 99% of games in 2v2 with another Zerg. It’s 1+ year that I play every day and we still cannot beat SkyToss. I watched all Vive’s b2gm, all Lambo tutorials, but I am still not able to beat them. Even when they have only Carriers/Voids and I have Corruptors/Vipers I still die most of the times.
I tried every combination that I can think off, both in ladder and both in the Unit Test Map. I would say that the UTM it’s not that helpfull because in a real game things are way worst. Protoss bases are unbreackable with batteries and cannons and I keep losing bases to voids.
I also tried Microbial Shroud + Idras, it works if they have only Air 1v1, but in 2v2 it’s a no go and only the lowest Protoss makes only Air.
In the end going ground is a suicide if the protoss is remotelly decent, the only other option is Corruptor + Viper + Ultra / Broodlords and if you can Infestors. It’s very difficult to control and the only hope is the ParaBomb spell + Dive with Corruptors, but they really die to Voids, Archons and HT, so you have to kill them first, but then you take too much damage and you have to lower the Voids life before engaging. If they have batteries your dead, if they have Tempest they will push on your spores or kill your vipers.
I don’t know man, as I said it’s 1 year that I am trying to beat them, one year playing every day, and nothing, not even close. Clearly I am no Pro, but at my level I am not able to find a way.
No. Not really. I’ve done this for years, beating everyone so easily. But then if you face anyone in the world who knows the right counter or can simply use vipers well… you could not win. It wasn’t physically possible.
It’s just hard to win if you can’t get a fourth base up. If you allow Toss to expand at the rate that they want to and makes them invulnerable… you’re going to lose unless you tech to vipers quickly.
It really punishes bad Zerg players. They’re not going to manage queens well enough. They’re not going to spread the necessary creep. They’re allergic to making a hive. Even if they do… they might not even be using any hotkeys. It’s just a style that really punishes the noregrets of the world who refuse to learn any fundamental skills.
It’s an optimal way to play as Toss, for macro. And what your opponent is doing is probably sub optimal. You’re supposed to win a lot in such a situation. If every opponent you faced used an optimal strat, while you guys were stuck being noobs and trying to win every game on the ground, with Toss, you’d never win either.
But I am not playing in an optimal way… AT ALL, i have played like 50 games of protoss. Is it fair to play “optimally” after 50 games while my opponents have 3-4k games with zerg and still cannot make a dent in my army? If thats not a proof protoss is insanely easier, i dont know what is.
I disagree, Voids kill bases and they put you behind (because the build time is too short), they can force Idras if you don’t want to go late game, but Idras cost gas and they lose value as carriers comes out and while Voids are extreamly valuable even in a death ball, Idras are wasted gas and then you don’t have enough for corruptors / vipers / broodlords / Ultra, all of them very gas heavy. Keep in mind that a late game Zerg is more gas expensive and a Protoss one, funny enough
If you’re simply making void rays and carriers, you’re already playing more optimally than any Toss pro has played in a macro game in the history of LotV before the past few months. Believe that.
If you can deny Zerg from taking a fourth… you can do w/e you want. Roll your face on the keyboard man. It’s like saying you’re beating every Terran who is stuck on 1 base, even though they weren’t doing an all-in. It’s like yeah… you probably could just make any random assortment of units and win. Doing the right thing is kinda overkill at that point, anyways.
Zerg needs vipers to deal with late game Toss. Zergs who aren’t high MMR tend to never make vipers. Imagine if Toss just spammed high templars and Terran refused to ever make ghosts. Your win rate might go up. It might even look imbalanced. Well, that’s why the game shouldn’t be balanced around Diamond league.
I have a confession here. I’ve done this strat so many times vs Epic, a guy who mains Terran… and I seriously don’t think I’ve won a game yet. I think I’ve even played him a few times since the void ray patch. He just freaking masses queens and lings, and spreads creep well enough to take w/e base he wants. He freaking hard counters this build. He makes it look like a joke, and he doesn’t even “play Zerg.”
It can be done. I wish it couldn’t be. I wish it were invincible like the P vs P build, but sadly… I don’t think it is.
I use hotkeys and control groups and still die to Protoss with no control groups (I can see it in the replay), half my APM and 3 bases when I have 6 with the same upgrades.
One of the Main Problems is that we discourage zerg Players to use spellcasters because there are sadly so many people Who say its way too difficult and thats why they dont learn it.
I have never heard someone saying to a protoss Player: dont bother going ht Strom because most likely You gonna die before You have researched it or dont bother because You will waste so many ht before You can get Good storms off. Or saying something like dont bother using sentries because the margin of error is too small. Not forcefielded perfectly?? Too Bad lings and banes pour through and rek you.
We always Said to protoss Players shut Your month learn to Play and use Your casters. Zergs however got away with a move units until lategame. Now this backfires heavily and we need to tell Them to learn to use spellcasters.
Or master league either? But then, you realize the game is completely imbalanced for like 99% of the player base? That doesnt sound too great…
the problem is the zerg army is already wayyyy harder to control than the protoss army because they need to flank, inject and make bases a lot more than protoss. So asking them to have 2 spellcasters and stutter step with an army just isnt fair compared to literally a-move
I dont use protoss spell casters most of the game, just when it gets to super late game and then its just T spam on enemy units. A lot less hard then to yank stuff from max range and focus fire it then back off into spores.
Yeah, well… they can at least thank me that everyone is dumb. If people listened to me… Zerg wouldn’t have won a game vs Toss for the past however many years… below GM.
I imagine you can still win some games with hydra pushes given people still haven’t really adopted the optimal way to deal with ground… Aren’t Toss players still trying to play mass cannon D every game, when it’s completely unnecessary… There’s still holes to exploit… But yeah, it’s heavily Toss favored.
It’s like… how favored would Zerg be if Toss agreed to never make any stargate units. You gotta learn how to use your units and stop gimping yourself. Zerg had it too easy. So many got to GM without even hotkeying anything… It’s like come on. The second the game is made harder for them… they’re in a lot of trouble.
It depends on the map, at least in 2v2 maps have a lot of dead space for Voids to hide and rotate. Queens can take some punishmen, but they don’t do much damage, if you rotate the Voids, Queens will never catch them.
I also make spores, but I cannot prevent them to kill the base, I might kill a Void or two, but the damage is done.
Also in 2v2 the Protoss is protected by his ally so he can be as greedy as he wants
What do inject and building bases have to do with micro?
Its true skytoss takes less micro than the answer but the same goes for ground zerg vs ground toss. You need way more micro as a protoss vs zerg when You go for a ground style.
And You can always use 1 spellcaster with zerg. You literally only need Vipers. And im Sure we can Trust zerg Players to use the freaking Best spellcaster in the game.
I have absolutely no idea about 2 vs 2. I won’t argue a single thing ever said about 2 vs 2, unless it’s about how fun and balanced it is.
Of course, it was too easy for them so now they arent adapted for a balanced match up…
Come on, you know as well as me thats plain ridiculous. When i off race as zerg, i can hardly get to diamond (about the same level as my terran) while i’m already beating master players with protoss very consistently after like 40-50 games of experience. Protoss is just easier, you can admit it now.
Is that true though? I’m pretty sure its easier to use Skytoss + storm than to split and flank with zerg ground army. Like wayyyy easier. And zerg has other things to manage so its already taxing their apm, hence making their micro all the more harder.
I don’t know this. Historically Zerg has always been easier to reach at least Diamond with. I thought everyone knew this. Some guy even posted the stats on here and proved that your chances of reaching at least Diamond league with Zerg, as opposed to another race, was 11% greater with Zerg.
It’s a shame that good work like that is just lost for ages to be ignored and forgotten. I played guys every day who didn’t use a single hotkey. They were always Zerg players. Only with Zerg is learning fundamental skills optional. Or at least was… This is actually one of the reasons I loved this style… because it just flat out abuses people who relied on the easiest ways to win with Zerg. It just humiliates the “lazy player.”
Once you start playing against the Stephano’s of the world, though, it’s still probably Zerg favored. This is really the most balanced P vs Z has ever been. Swear to god. So, what’s the problem. I know it looks different… but it’s about time it does.
For the record, I’m not saying Zerg is easier to win with at the pro level or anything. I’m just saying, players can get GM via Zerg macro the same way Toss players can get GM from “proxy 2 gating every game.” Neither is more skilled than the other, despite that saying nothing about anything beyond that.
It’s simply changing now where those who have no fundamental skills are getting weeded out. Like you need to use hotkeys. You need to know what a minimap is and etc. That’s a great thing.
It might be because a fungal does 30 dmg against a storm that does 80dmg? Infestors alone do nothing, but a storm on Idras can almost kill them, even worst if we talk about Disruptors. Zerg units have very little HP, you can’t even compare the effort required for using spell caster.
Even the mighty Viper Bomb barely consume the shield on Voids if you take full damage and this over 7 seconds.