I thought it was terrible to disable Swann’s laser drill abilities (P1) at first, but after a couple tries, I found it quite powerful. Especially after Blizzard give the drill quick lock on. The upgraded drill is so powerful and it slows enemies. I use the drill to snipe Dominators, BCs and scourges while cleaning map with goliaths/Science Vessels balls. Just a real easy solution.
Another comparison is with Nova. You do NOT just brazenly move her units into whole attack waves without support! I mean, you can, but we’re talking about without taking excessive casualties/damage. Deploy Defense Drone, Nova herself to snipe key targets, her shotgun to thin out swarms, and sabotage drone vs. bases. Later on, soften attack waves with Griffin Air Strike. Use nuke. Deploy Ravens.
With Swann, use see post #28 above. Warbots to tank damage. Concentrated Beam can wipe out attack waves, etc.
Mass Gollies is still a thing right? Even if it works much of the time, that should be enough to show they’re as decent as any other A-move comp.
Still very much a thing. Critical mass of goliaths will slaughter whatever your siege tanks didn’t finish off already, with some thors in the background to one-two the big units stepping up.
I used to play Swann a lot, and have probably spent more energy on optimising the first minutes of play than any other commander, because it matters so much for him and it’s so easy to get sloppy and become supply blocked.
Ended up with a nice rhythm where I fast expanded like normal with blasters, handled first wave with calldown and had a Herc and 8 tanks with +40 damage upgrade ready before the 8 minute mark.
After that I built a second factory and pumped out mass Goliath with some sci vessels for the rest of the game.
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Some players forget that thors exist. I add 2-4 thors in my composition in case there are scourge/oracle/phoenix/banshee.
Griffin airstrike is not soften, but more of a “annihilate whole wave thing” solution. Nova can handle without it most of the time. Swann, on the other hand, if get critical mass of units that counter enemy wave properly, will just decimate wave without any casulties (or with minimal). For example, when facing ground comp, just make 16 tanks instead of 8 and it’s all settled, or add some thors vs light air if its present. Nova and some other commanders might involve some tricks in handling their armies in engagement, but critical mass swann just dominates waves, while throwing calldowns into enemy bases and waves on the other edge of the map. For me that’s everything but weak.
Swann is really powerful, but in the hands of the inexperienced he seems weak. Sadly there are too many who blame the commander rather than try to improve their skill.
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Yeah, the older commanders have this theme compared to newer commanders, which all seem more straight forward and less punishing - generally speaking of course. That’s not to say there aren’t finer nuances to them, just easier to dive in.
Your points are not worth talking about as they are minor at best.
That being said, of course you can use vessels to make your goliaths tankier. However every player (even the best in the world) has limited micro capabilties. So you have to compare skill by skill.
So while Swann micros with vessels to not loose one goliath after another, Artanis micros his templars to erase entire waves with a few casts, while at the same time increasing his units tankiness 3 times better than Swann ever could. Let that sink in… and Artanis still has guardian shell as backup.
And pulling of some storm micro is a hell of a lot easier than D-matrixing the right unit at the right time in late game engagements with 100+ army supply.
Swann sux. Just like 1/3 of commanders out there. Their just not in the same ballpark as the rest in terms of early game power and versatility.
First: i don’t need your advice. I probably have 5 times as many games played… and i am willing to compare your replay folder content VS mine, if you have doubts.
Second: if there is any other air unit (like mutas) that can shoot ground, goliaths will prioritize those.
Third, if you pull your vessels back far enough, they will be out of range to do their job.
Forth: here comes advice for you: only reliable way (aside from calldowns) to protect your vessels against late game zerg scourge air comps, is to D-matrix 2 empty hercules and suicide them forward. Other than that is to have a bunch of thors around for their anti air AoE and pray…
This is just another phrase for “this commander is garbage”
Cause while you practice D-matrix micro, some other dude gets the same skill in using templars, ascendants, ravens or vipers. Their performance will just trash whatever you can pull off with science vessels. If you have the pinpoint accuracy that is needed to D-matrix efficiently in large battles, then microing something like templars or ascendants will be a PIECE OF CAKE. And templars and ascendants don’t just die in seconds as vessels do against scourges.
Sure you can get “good” with swann… but the same skill will get you a hell of a lot futher with a quite a few other commanders…
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Goliaths, siege tanks, thors, and science vessels. Use bots and drill to make your way before you can critcal mass. That’s what people are doing.
Everything else is build orders and other details, but unless you’re carrying you can do anyways.
I can’t say why it doesn’t work for you. How about you detail what exactly you do so people can actually help you?
Also, “take a lot of practice is another phrase for this commander is garbage?”
I, LITERALLY, cannot facepalm hard enough right now. Even if a commander is hard to play and hard to master is can still have a very high ceiling.
I call that BS.
Lets say you can perfectly micro 12 science vessels and double hercules tank drop micro 100 supply in tanks… now that’s impressive to witness!
Now imagine what someone with that kind of micro can pull of playing Abathur. Or Nova. Or Alarak. Or …
In a world like SC2 where NOBODY plays any commander perfectly, being difficult to play is THE SAME as BAD.
Is that not obvious? If Swann is difficult - what does that actually mean? Swann is not the only commander that performs better if you improve your skill.
Just imagine how high the skill ceiling for Lone Wolf Tychus is. Or Tyrant Ascendant Alarak. Or Soldier of Fortune Nova.
Do you really think while you get better at playing Swann, other commander have hit their skill ceiling and can’t get any better? Yeah - sure…
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Yes, some commanders are easier to play than others, we need those to give newcomers a starting point. If you stopped being so angry and instead detail what you do when you poor success then people could help you.
I mean I agree with you on the variance of commanders, zhadoom. No commanders will be the same, so yeah Swann is harder to play.
That also doesn’t make him bad. I mean unless your definition of bad is hard, in which case why not say hard to play?
Swann is hard to play for sure and really that’s about the extend of this discussion. And no matter how high a ceiling any individual commander has, the threshold of skill (that fine line) to beat Brutal is there. And Swann meets that very easily.
I’m leveling P3 currently, and I’ve ran into so many games where my ally is off doing something else of low priority for that moment. This leaves Swann in a very hard bind… in the end, it works but only because of my knowledge and experience with Swann. So I can see viewed in that perspective, Swann is “bad” for a lack of better word.
As a side note while reading you two’s debate. Irradiate is your friend VS anything bio, which obviously is all Zerg. Scourge sucks but when clumped up during later waves, it’s quite easy to multi-cast them to death.
Compared to some other macro heavy commanders, Swann is weak early game, mid-game and only catches up in lategame. While full mastery Swann can be strong with perfect macro and micro, you can steamroll with lvl 10 Fenix where Swann strugles hard. Fully upgraded lategame Swanns army is awesome, but getting there might be an issue. Especially when you playing fast maps, you ally is potato and you have to do most of the work.
Ï think buffing his early game a little bit would be nice. Sure, he can do well with turrets on maps like MO, ToP, VL or ME, but pushing early on SoA or ChoA is really painful sometimes.
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Irradiate is good vs zerg, but not as much for scourges… its not reliable. Cause scourges are deadly even with 1 HP. If you irradiate scourges, there is a fair to good chance that a few will survive cause the irradiated ones died before killing all… and even if it kills all, it takes a few seconds to do so, so you still have to run with your vessels, while the ground fight is going on… that’s no good. They are there to shield and heal.
Especially since sourges tend to come with banelings…
Cause it is misleading. HARD infers that with some more practice you might be on par with other commanders. I don’t think that is the case with Swann.
I don’t want to bash anyones favorite commander here. Now this may be hard to believe, but i actually LIKE playing Swann. He was one of the first 5 commanders that i leveled all 3 presige levels. His P3 is nice… but doesn’t change the equation much to be honest. And there are more commanders, arguably even worse.
Yeah, an update on a game I just had.
Me as a level 5 (just got vespene drone) P3 Swann and a Mastery sub90 Fenix on LL. Literally took us 20min to get this done. Took a lot of work as my ally went 6 Stargates with full tech of all buildings before making a single Scout as an opening.
It’s in these instances especially when you see the shortcomings of Swann. It’s not that impossible to push early, but as a level 5 with no mastery and not even full talent. Knowing to hang back a bit imo is the right call. And that’s part of the bigger challenge of Swann - people can’t just hard push and push randomly without purpose and expect to win.
As for being on par. I don’t know man. To me being on par is being able to do the average timing any other would do. Of course, there are some overpowered exceptions. And I think that’s where the issue gets a bit convoluted. We can’t compare Abby or Dehaka on LL as we do on Swann. Yet, I’d much prefer to speedrun with Swann on LL than I would say Mengsk, Vorazun, and Fenix.
And that’s where you’re wrong.
Swann is a defensive CO with one of the best defense schemes of any of the CO’s. The fact that his offense CAN be as good as it is in the hands of someone that knows what to do with it is just a really nice bonus.
You all are talking about what makes Swann a good CO compared to other CO’s with easier kits the answer is pretty simple. Swann is good at things that other CO’s are not.
Tychus for example? Bad defender, can’t exert his presence on many parts of the map at once (unless you’re really strong at multi-tasking Outlaws with Lone Wolf, but that takes skill) Swann with his Drill CDs, Tactical Jump and Turrets can exert his influence on many parts of the map at once.
Just judging him by how fast he speed runs missions isn’t a good way to categorize what he can do, especially since a few maps can’t even be speed run at all.
Here’s the truth about Swann. He’s totally fine in clearing every map in decent time, he’s stronger and easier to play than other CO’s on defense maps, and in the hands of a decent player he has MANY tools that other CO’s do not have.
Judging him by what he’s like at level 5 by how fast he speed runs? Nah. Not a good methodology.
This might shock you, but I can do things with Swann I can’t do with Nova or Abathur. I pick them for different reasons.
Here’s my advice for you. Instead of complaining on the forums about things you don’t understand, try actually learning all of the CO’s and getting good with them. Once you do, you’ll start to notice areas that some CO’s have it easier and some CO’s have it harder.
When you start playing Mutations you’ll start to notice how some CO’s have it easier vs some Mutations and harder vs others.
For example: I hardly see people mention Artanis as being especially powerful, but he makes so many different mutations absolutely trivial that it’s hard to believe that most on these boards don’t consider him one of the strongest CO’s in the game.
With more time and experience you’ll start to understand the merits each CO has.
And final point? Different playstyles are more FUN for different players. I enjoy Swann’s complexity. It makes me want to play him a lot more than someone like Tychus, even if Tychus has it easier in a lot of situations. You might want Tychus’ simplicity attached to every CO but I don’t. Blizzard is trying to cater to a lot of different players with different tastes with Co Op. If you can’t understand why a certain CO is the way they are, perhaps you should just accept that the CO isn’t for you and move on to another one, which would be easy if you leveled them all up like I suggested earlier.
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Where am I wrong lol?
Being on par in terms of completing a mission at a regular timing is wrong then I guess…
I suppose it’s more appropriate to say that the “idea” of being on par with other CO’s is judged by how fast they speed run a mission is wrong.
You yourself don’t sound convinced of that idea later in your post, but you still attribute merit to it early on.
That idea is wrong. It just is. There’s so much nuance in the different CO’s how they play with each other and against different obstacles to just put a blanket (these CO’s are better because they clear missions faster.) Especially wrong when judging them while leveling up.
Yes this measure is not appropriate, even though I didn’t say this was the measure. I merely referred to a standard timing that’s appropriate for mission completion without dragging it on. Such as my example of doing LL for 20min. Even in this case, it is okay given the circumstances.
I don’t share Zhadoom’s view that Swann is bad. We were just having a discussion. And I entirely agree that each commander has their forte. Though I wouldn’t necessarily call Swann a “defensive commander”, he does have a strong defensive kit.
And I think that’s the key here. Each commander has their tool kits, within it some are better fit to some than others. I think this is where you got confused when I said I’d rather speed run with Swann on LL. It is not because the speedrun is a good measure but the fact he has those kits - being top bar heavy, drill abilities destroy this mission. See the difference?
Not that any of this changes Swann. The point is most missions do favour aggressive play. And being proactive on missions (even with the slowest of ramping commanders) have clear advantages. These 2 intrinsic design factors can definitely give the impression one commander (such as Swann) is harder than another. After all, both you and your ally have small milestones throughout each mission. Seeing your ally doing most of them would give this feel.