Actually, my TvP has an absurdly high win rate right now. Like it’s a good 85-90% and I find it the easiest of all MUs though the games tend to go on a lot longer than they should due to how strong Terran defender’s advantage is which essentially forces me to starve them out instead of base wipe.
My bad MU right now is PvP and it’s because it’s near impossible to deal with PvP non-standard play without going non-standard yourself and where I excel is macro, my macro is probably around M2 or M1 which doesn’t help in non-standard PvP.
Your point about the no high ground on the nat is a good one! Ideally I’d like to see that go away as well though imo it’s less of an issue as every race is effected by that feature equally.
I don’t lose to the Overlord scout but as a player who is respectable with all 3 races, when I play Zerg, that spot isn’t really needed. I can and sometimes do fly an Overlord to dead space and just sack it later to get information, sometimes it doesn’t even die when I expect it to…so to that end, why are pervy Overlord pillars a requirement for every single map? If a D2 player can use dead space effectively to save their Overlord and then get info with that Overlord a little later on, why can’t other people? Seems like a feature that’s left over from a time when sc2 was very different.
I like the idea for unburrowed mines having a higher priority!
Marine have a new spell : Marine Jump : when they are under the effect of stimpack they can jump over any unit and they performs a 360 no scope during the air time. (3 sec cooldown)
Why not 10 range? Then it would be equal to Broodlord and Tempest, surely that would make more sense if the goal is to level the playing field (if 11 range is indeed too much). The Thor’s job is to counter massive air units, the moment it can’t do that then it’s just a waste of time, remember back when Broodlords could still abuse leash range? Thor’s were trash, and your change basically just reinstates that dynamic.
This would be like me saying “I see no issue with the Tempest being garbage vs Thors because Protoss can just make Disruptors” (which by your own admission, annihilate Thors). The game just isn’t this binary, it’s not a valid argument.
Other than that I don’t really see any super unreasonable suggestions. Adding a mineral cost to locusts probably means they either need to live for longer, or work like interceptors (i.e. be permanent). Otherwise that’s a bit of a double standard against our Zerg friends. I’m also not yet convinced Zerg needs more nerfs anyway. Protoss though I can agree needs some help.
I disagree on your point about maps, which is to say I don’t think cheese strategies should be “designed out of the game”. It just reduces variety, and I think it’s fine to have some quirks with certain maps, they rotate eventually anyway. Ultimately it’s a matter of opinion.
With how hard Disruptors shred Thors, Tempests aren’t even remotely required nor are they the correct answer to Thors. Even at 9 range, this doesn’t change since your margin for error with Tempest would be razor thin.
In terms of the Broodlords, the issue was so much worse than a 1 range differential, we’re talking about Broodlings running from a good 15 range…it was messed up and totally imbalanced.
With that being said you could have a point and testing would be needed at both 9 and 10 range.
I agree with all but this one, I realy think it’s fair to make it harder for the Terran players to scout, just because it prevent all ins, people can manage all ins, it’s a decision that not only hurt all ins players, but macro players also.
I think that’s a lot, maybe 5 minerals.
I can agree with this but down to 3 you’ll need to nerf it’s HP.
YES, PLEASE.
It can be 10, to match buffed Tempest.
I think it could do 25 damage on shields, but to remove it completely is asking for too much.
I actually have somewhat of an issue with this, most notably because of the tempest shield battery rush being a thing, in addition to the fact that there are no other 3 supply capital ships. 4 supply would be better, and at least keeps it on par with the brood lord which they massively outrange.
Also, in tandem with this change:
It effectively means that the Tempest SB rush had little to no counter since it now out-ranges the thor and everything else is made of paper, and out-ranged on top of that. Plus the difference in speed. The thor is designed to be a “giant that kills other giants.” HIP doesnt necessarily need to be 11 range to fulfil that, but should at least be 10 to match broods and tempests. Then it becomes a battle of micro and positioning.
Could work. Might need to be split into a second upgrade depending on how it plays out, because you can mass adepts really quickly with warpgate, and they aren’t exactly squishy like a marine is.
I also have concerns about this change specifocally because of the way siege units work, particularly ground siege units, all of which must immobilize themselves to fire at range. Given Disruptors massive range of attack, this has the potential to cause problems. I’d like to see it in practice first, but this becomes another potential “swarm host” issue where you trade energy/cool down for nothing, at no risk to yourself ever. I honestly don’t think it’s needed. Just pair it with the warp prism for survivability increase.
True. However, niche builds such as ghost rushes for sniping down queens can become a real threat to zerg production if such a change was made. I’d like to see this tested, but would be wary of the change.
Might be a bit overkill given Zerg’s reliance on cheap, swarmy units, this could quickly stack up and make them near useless. Maybe 5 or 10 instead. The difference between this and the carrier is that the carrier’s interceptors have more HP and actually return back to them. Because locusts are timed life units, you can effectively sack minerals for literally nothing.
Alternatively, add a leashe range to them so the swarm hosts have to put themselves in a dangerous position to launch them as well as do damage.
Just some things to keep in mind. But solid things to consider, especially surrounding the map design stuff.
Most of these changes are questionable I would say.
I wouldn’t get rid of cannon rushing or the overlord ledge. I do agree with getting rid of double wide ramps on naturals.
Queens are fine with their health. I’d lower their AA range to 7 and decrease their ground damage a slight bit (like 3-4%) but they are basically fine.
Tempest supply should be 4 not 3 (void rays and immortals are 4). 3 is too little for a massive unit. The real issue with tempests is their terrible DPS. I’d honestly just keep the supply at 5 and just make them do 55 per shot to everything. However if there is no damage buff, then yes supply of 4 would be reasonable.
The viper consume change is too drastic. I would just make them have to consume units (like the old defiler) and make the MP acquired vary with the HP of the unit consumed.
15 per locust is peanuts. I think the better change is to just make locusts be actual artillery by making them die sooner. They hit do some damage quickly and die as opposed to now where they hit, can be microed for a long time, and then eventually die. If their lifespan is shorter they become more like bullets than units.
Thor should outrange all air units.
I disagree with BCs needing sight for tactical jump. Its fine. One thing to do is maybe make the vulnerability/phase in longer if they jump in blind (like 2 seconds instead of 1 second or whatever it is). But my basic feeling is that BCs are fine.
I disagree with the ghost change. Way too drastic. EMP is a key spell for terran. I think perhaps what should be added is that units hit by EMP cannot take additional shield damage from another EMP for 5 or 6 seconds (so you can’t insta kill archons for example).
I would add the following suggestion: I would shorten colossus build time to 45 seconds. I would also shorten the research time of extended thermal lance (currently its 120 sec I believe and it should be closer to like 90-100). I would also shorten the research time of storm to 55 seconds (currently its 74 secs). Currently there is a real problem in PVT with 2 base pushes where you are very dependent on colossus or storm splash damage and its extremely extremely hard to get these units out in time to stop very basic 2 base pushes by terran bio. Its pretty much impossible to get storm out in time actually and you can often get 2 colossus with no upgrade or 1 colossus with the upgrade by about the 6 min push and it can still get very very scary to hold these pushes. I can refer you to innovation vs zest from 2 weeks ago on warditv (youtube it) where zest loses 2 games as a full 3 base protoss vs a base terran bio push. Its just very very hard to hold and there is no other unit composition that does better.
The SB Tempest rush wouldn’t change with a 3 supply Tempest, it’s completely gas and time restricted, not supply restricted.
No other capital ship quite sucks like the Tempest, however, which is why imo, a 3 supply Tempest is okay as it’s only real use is to counter massed, troublesome air units.
Cyclones are the correct answer to the Tempest SB rush; Thors are just overtuned vs air which is why they can also hold a Tempest SB rush. I’d like to see 9 and 10 range Thors tested but generally, this would only be a potential issue with Broodlords since broodlings are pathing blockers. Tempests, even with my change would be a terrible unit to make vs a Thor-centric composition.
The Disruptor change would definitely need testing, my big concern is any unit under 75 health is still insta gibbed so to those units, it’s effectively a Disruptor buff - and my goal isn’t to buff, it’s to make Disruptors micro-able units that are less binary in their result.
Your other points are totally valid too, the Queen change while probably very healthy for the game might make certain rushes too powerful and Swarm Host locust cost could absolutely cost less, 15 minerals was just pulling a number out of my keister. The leash range would accomplish a reasonable middle ground as well, provided a Locust died if the Swarm Host moved away from the leash range.
Pervert pillars so so stinking annoying lol, I don’t think there’s any need for them anymore and it was a feature left over from a different expansion.
We definitely have differing views but that’s the spice of life!
The charge partial revert should cover the Terran 2 base allins being too strong in PvT as Charge before the massive nerf was a fantastic counter to these style of pushes. At least they did for me and let me beat some crazy good players who had a good 1k+ MMR on me because they’d go for an allin, which Charge generally routed - and would be screwed after…now, I think Charge beforehand was excessive with +8 damage right out of the gate but I firmly believe damage on impact is balanced and just needed to be tiered so it didn’t hard wipe, route and then win the game, making allins a death sentence vs it.
I’d like to know why you think the Thor should out range all air units, that has me curious.
For a short time. The problem is that cyclones are fragile and will always take one or two hits guaranteed. The moment you have three tempests, you are going to lose a cyclone with no cost at all. And cyclones don’t produce that quickly either. Hence the need for Thors, which again, are designed to kill massive air units. That is their purpose, and truthfully the only thing they’re good at. In saying that, no, you don’t want tempests against a thor centric composition, but your change effectively enables that to work, particularly if you are able to abuse the terrain. Thors with 9 range will never get in range of tempests because tempests are faster, accelerate faster and are in general more maneuverable.
While I agree with this statement, consider the speed and burst potential of the unit with the range it has - particularly against things that arent quite as HP intensive as a battle cruiser, for instance. A brood lord is 4 supply and has less HP total than tempests and possibly even voids (I’m not certain of the numbers on that.) Besides, if 4 is to high, you can always go lower.
Ideally, speaking as someone who used to SB Tempest rush in PvT before the Thor buff, on occasion, I hated seeing Cyclones with a Tempest rush. You’re right they do have a falloff when they start getting 1 shot but you ideally also get Vikings to work in tandem.
The investment into a cheese like proxy SB Tempest is astronomical, Terran should be required to put in as many resources or at least a similar amount to defend it and the Thor bypasses this premise entirely in it’s current form.
I do think that it should be thoroughly tested but I genuinely think that a 9 range HIP Thor wouldn’t cause any issues, or ifit did, it could be mitigated by not trying to use Thors to combat the things they’re supposed to suck vs; long range, mobile units.
I’m much more concerned about the 9 vs 10 range of the Broodlord since Zerg have ultra mega hard counters to Terran air that you’d need to fight Broodlords without Thors, otherwise you run into Protoss’s problem vs Thor-centric mech styles; you end up with 1 unit that works vs it that’s expensive and you have to build your entire composition around spamming that 1 unit (Ghost).
For testing with the Tempest I’d start at 3 supply, see how that goes and if anything nutty cropped up, then I’d bump it to 4 Supply but ultimately, I think we’re on the same page there with you being a little more cautious during the testing phase.
My understanding is that they were supposed to trade okay vs those types of units (liberators fall into that category to some extent too, as do voids) but not out trade them completely.
Their weak point is the small, fast attacking, squishy units such as marines and zerglings enmass.
Great job at affirming why the balance team will never, ever, listen to design suggestions from these forums. Cannon rushes aren’t imba. You just need to learn to play.
You missed out on the key variable of this being a very specific cannon rush that’s only doable on 1 map this season, maybe 2.
A normal cannon rush is perfectly fine, this one abuses a map ledge to build a 3 pylon wall which ensures that no matter what, your cannon will finish and be powered.
There are multiple spots to perform the 3 pylon wall. Are you going to patrol 3 probes blindly at the start of a game on the off chance your opponent is going to do this specific cannon rush?
No, you’re not. Stick to Terran Batz.
P.S. even if you do patrol a Probe, the wall can still complete, a probe moving across a 12 square tileset in a line leaves openings that can be exploited if the map in question happened to only have 1 spot to 3 pylon wall.
Okay, enjoy your Schodinger’s Probe, apparently you can account for the 2nd Probe, all the ledge locations and deny it from ever happening, all because Batz says so.