What if there was an option to play coop with ladder units? Instead of a commander you could pick a race, no masteries, no top bar powers.
The game would be much more difficult:
Weaker units and no powers to save you in a tight situation. You would have to play much more safely, especially in the early game.
A 2 base economy would make ramping up even slower than what’s possible in a ladder game.
Unit composition you go for would actually matter. I like that we got an indicator of unit composition with the last patch, but with most commanders it’s worthless. You could spam the same units on all maps on brutal and still win easily (Artanis: mass dragoons, Swan: mass goliaths, Kerrigan: mass hydra etc.). With weaker units and firepower you would need to be really careful to only build a composition of units that would battle the waves most efficiently.
Friendly fire. In ladder games you can destroy your own units with your own siege tank splash, HT storm, disruptors, nukes… What could hurt you in coop would have to be selected carefully because not all splash can be easily avoided (Zeratul’s disruptor cluster shots come to mind). Ally’s superpowers would hurt you.
But not everything would have just a negative impact on the game:
Larger unit selection. You could build any unit from selected race’s arsenal which would help counter certain wave compositions.
Unlimited nukes. You could have 10 nukes fired at the same time without waiting for a cooldown counter.
This might be the ultra brutal mode some people are looking for. What do you think? Would it be even possible to win every scenario in coop, mutations included?
I’d suggested something like this in the old forum, and the consensus of the replies seemed to be that the latter faction’s slower starts would make the start a nightmare.
I’d proposed a similar idea, with economic fixes to ensure that the ladder units could keep up. Essentially an upgrade system for the resources used by the ladder commander. wasn’t received well.
One reason to play co-op is to get away from playing the strictly balanced nature of ladder. Co-op commanders are designed to be overpowered; ladder type commanders simply don’t fit that framework.
The obvious problem is that because of the strict limit of ladder mechanism, having that “vast selection” makes 0 difference.
Want to counter bio on 2 base? Guess you only have Tanks as Terran, Colossi as Protoss, and Banelings as Zerg. Everything will be funneled into the only play is an optimal counter play.
If I’m understanding this right, the whole idea of introducing more variety is actually not achieved at all. And we’ve barely dived into other issues like:
How to push some objectives on 2 base.
How to counter later waves and still spare time for mission bonus.
How to even expand on non-rock maps on a single base while defending 1st wave and not lose objective.
I always liked to ponder the idea of a ‘commanders’ who played similarly to the Versus factions in terms of unit variety. I think if done right, it could actually be a lot of fun.
Obviously, the stats and/or abilities don’t need to strictly be the inferior Ladder versions. It’s mostly the unit variety and full tech tree access that makes the idea novel to me, with the ability to tech to and use any combination of units you want.
Actual groups of Medivacs, standard issue Liberators that are mass-able, mass produced Ghosts and Academies for building nukes to launch freely. Stuff we cannot do in Coop currently, basically. Same with certain unit combos. Can’t mix Marines with Thor support, since our only Thor commander is pure Mech.
Likewise for Zerg and Protoss and their respective tech trees and unit combos. Getting two capital ships in the form of Carriers and Tempests (with the latter having that now defunct Disruption Blast ability). Ladder factions in Coop isn’t focused on balance, letting some of the defunct abilities and ideas that failed in Ladder to re-emerge here, much like with the Tempest and that beta ability.
Level 1-15 talent perks could basically just amount to free resources to start with, extra supply, making certain researches and strategies cost less (free nuke production at Academies for a Terran talent, for example), and other miscellaneous perks to boost certain aspects to each faction. Likewise with masteries, such as making researches and upgrades faster and/or cheaper.
I would basically imagine it as being like playing better versions of Ladder factions, with all the freedom that comes from having a variety of an almost full tech tree. If done right, it could be a lot of fun, and not lacking in strength compared to ‘actual’ Commanders.
A lot of their build times are actually less in Versus vs. Coop. However, Masteries, talents, and other upgrades can make them on par, or better, but at least those are the exceptions than the norm.
“Eh”… not really needed. 4 of the 5 Terran COs can already nuke, or do its equivalent. A “Ladder CO” would be able to queue up multiple nukes at a time, but that doesn’t seem to be a worthy tradeoff.
The only pros I can see to having an option to play ladder races in co-op are:
More challenge for the player using them
The ability to play ladder race in co-op, if said ladder race is your favorite force to play
Fresh, new way to play co-op
Get to practice basic ladder-style mechanics vs AI in co-op environment, such as the unique maps (but playing co-op will never be a truly good means for improving ladder gameplay; far too different in far too many metrics / dynamics)
I think that the first and second points are why the original poster wants ladder commanders in co-op.
Here’s probably the biggest, and most obvious problem with ladder commanders in co-op:
You will be handicapping your ally in matchmaking, as Blizzard wouldn’t do a separate matchmaking for ladder commanders being matched with other ladder commanders only. That player pool would be too small. Blizz would have to let them get matched with actual co-op commanders. And a lot of people wouldn’t be happy about that. Lmao I can feel and hear all the rage from people being matched with inherently weak ladder commanders and struggling to carry them…
Hmm. Now I like this idea. The drama alone would be hilarious and worth it.
I think it’s important for OP to clarify what he meant, as it seems some are taking it out of context (or rather add changes to his initial post):
Instead of a commander you could pick a race, no masteries, no top bar powers.
This sounds like 0 change from ladder to me personally. Aside from all the points mentioned previously, the biggest concern I have is the Uncreativity aspect.
Despite all the favoritism, hatred, and general buzz on each of the commanders released in the past 2 years, I would say they are still quite unique to their own game design or play style. My only fear with having a ladder copy of a commander is this downward trend to non-original thought trickling down further.
The kind of difficulty as OP puts it:
This might be the ultra brutal mode some people are looking for. What do you think? Would it be even possible to win every scenario in coop, mutations included?
Can already be achieved by turning off all masteries, limiting oneself with available yet non-meta units, and move forward by trying to beat maps or achieve completion times similar to a meta-build of the same commander.
The first game you start on April 1st brings your commander into a random map game of the diamond league in the training mode that doesn’t affect your ranking.
Kinda like „Steppes of betrayal“ where two commanders duked it out three years ago - but a little more spiced up with an unknowing diamond league member having the time of his life.
I like the idea, might be a good way to practice for pvp. I don’t play versus, so not sure how it will cope with coop, but coop is easy now, having a harder to play “standard” race can be interesting.
I’m sure someone like Maru/Serral will beat coop with standard units, so something for us mortals to aim for.
Larger unit selection. You could build any unit from selected race’s arsenal which would help counter certain wave compositions.
This would run into the exact same issue the WoL campaign ran into, that “large unit selection” is balanced around Versus. In Versus units are balanced around things like worker line harassment, fights in small numbers, hitting enemies super early or at specific points in the game. What use is a Versus reaper going to be on Rifts to Korhal, Amon doesn’t exactly have a mineral line to harass or a point where he’ll have one zealot and a stalker.
You might be giving you a large toolkit to work with, but it’d be giving you a hammer, a blowtorch, and some nail clippers when the job is hitting nails. You’d just make things MORE monobuild as you have to use meaty comps that can deal with attack waves. Co-op is designed and balanced for Co-op maps, dealing with attack waves and attacking enemy positions. Versus balance is a different beast entirely.
Unlimited nukes. You could have 10 nukes fired at the same time without waiting for a cooldown counter.
This is a super minor benefit, especially considering how much windup that would be.