Constructive, Game Balance TvP

General Discussion
1

Hi,
I am a master 2 player who mains Protoss, but mostly plays Random.
Now, whatever league I am at or whatever race I play doesn´t and should´t matter. I am not a fan of a race. I am a fan of fairness and all races.

I can´t say much about ZvP and that´s becasue it´s my best matchup both ways. (When I play Zerg and when I play Protoss). So I leave it at that.

The only matchup I feel like needs some kind of adjustment is TvP. Is it broken? I don´t think so. I really don´t. We see top player like Maru playing late game on pair with a Protoss player so it means it´s possible.

The problem is, to play equally you need to have an amazing multitasking and unit control. It´s very unforgiving if you missmicro or if you are out of position.
Seigh, widow, vikings, ghost, libs, stim bio, It take a lot of control in my opinion.

While with Protoss, what I do is having main army at 1, sentrys at 2 and 1. So whenever i engage I press 1 and immidietly have my storms available, press 2 and shild/force Field. Thats all, really. I wanna position my stalker? ControlL a stalker and blink.

I hear a lot of fellow Protoss player say, we have storm, blink sentrys, oracle so many buttons. But in my opinion they make it sound harder than it is.

“Is it that hard to press shift to switch from ghost to bio Lolololol”?!
No, actually it´s not. But when you have so many other things to micro then yes. It gets extreamly demanding.

Enough said, here is the changes I like to see! :blush:

Add stim to ghosts
It´s a little change but a massiv help. It just makes everything so much easier.

Storm rework
My Lord I love my storms. If there is anything that breaks TvP is storms. I´ve seen top player (GSL) beeing far ahead and storm is what narrows that gap. It is to unforgiving and to spamable.
Maybe delay the cast for 0,5 sec (see a lightning animation) and then cast OR reduce the area just a tiny tiny bit. That gives time to split and react/
or would´t kill the enire army in seconds.

Terran players must understand though, that storms is needed in this matchup.

That´s the two things I feel that need to change. As I said I really don´t think it´s broken just harder to play.

PS: Plz add a customization to the minimap. I want it on the top right corner below the supply table and I want a more clear minimap where pixles are more distinguishable. Please :smile:

Thank you for reading!

20 Likes
2

The only way how you can balance TvP and ZvP is to remove protoss from the game

7 Likes
3

Im only diamond as both P and T, but I dont really think storm is the problem. Sure, it seems totally BS when 2 templars fill whole screen with storms and P laughs: “Just split better LUL”, but thats not really the main problem. Main problem is that Protoss is just better at everything. Proxy? Single gateway can delete Terran natural. Early game? In early game, stalkers can pick off units for free and adepts can shade past static defense, so T always need more army just to be safe. Mid game? There is a window, where 2 base push hits before P aoe starts to play a role. Only real advantage T will ever have, whole game. Late game TvP is just LUL with combination of oracle + HT + Tempest.

1 Like
4

Give terran either perma cloaked widowmines again to force robo opening from toss OR buff mule mineral collection rate.

Ghost stim does absolutely zero

To prevent immortal allins blizz could just simply make pickup range an upgrade and remove fast prism completely.

3 Likes
5

I agree with these changes.

1 Like
6

Chrono boost is the root of protoss imbalance, it makes it possible to have a lot of tech units for a 2 base allin or to straight up rush to a much better economy and terran can only go for the kill because protoss will run away with the game.

Thats in my opinion the whole problem with the terran race. Terran has no late game. No ability to turtle and get to a safe position. Terran is never safe. Always on the clock. Protoss and Zerg can either go greedy or allin. Terran only has the kill. Sooner or later.

4 Likes
7

I think they do, it just “unbalanced” in terms of “difficulty” of late game. Terran late game is truly a pain. Protoss late game is much easier to control.

8

Everything about Terran is balanced around difficulty. Terran has unlimited micro potential. 30 marines could stim, target fire 5 Zerglings per volley, kite, all while splitting such that only one bane connects with a single marine (and then gets micro’d back to heal).

One of the frustrating things about Terran, is that at the end of the day, everything is a L2P issue. It’s only ever balanced around the limitations on the human digits.

4 Likes
9

Terrans have a lot of powerful tools, maybe it’s just how people use. If you run your widow mines right into the front line to get fired upon before they are burrowed they die and are useless.

If you let your siege tanks get flanked they die. Don’t worry about covering your 6 nobody will ever flank in an rts. If you set a widow mine too far from the edge of the mine the Protoss drop doesn’t get hit.

If you have liberators on a ramp with enough room for the Protoss army to walk by they are not effective.

I just watched the GSL, and it’s a l2p issue.

If you know your going to get stormed then bluff them and try to get the Protoss to shoot his load to early. Terrans don’t know how to manipulate. It’s March forward and die because your out played claiming to be God’s of micro.

3 Likes
10

From my perspective, TvP is in the best shape since 4.0 patch. Proxy meta was ugly and stupid, while macro was impossible. After proxy was gone, protosses started to roll over terrans with 2-2 timing. I did not like the upgrade nerfs at first, but now I gotta admit the matchup’s got significantly healthier.
The good thing about today’s matches is that we could see that protoss started to respect terran a little more. Trap did not try to play super greedy as protosses usually do, so the games looked somewhat normal.
The bad thing is that even when protoss doesn’t play greedy, he’s still in a slightly more advantageous position. So even if you show some reckless plays, that Trap did twice in the series, you still can get away with it.
I think the biggest problem now is not that protoss is OP. The problem is that protoss is way too easy to play in the current meta. Just go 2 base allin in PvZ (no skill required, really) and you can beat anyone, PvT is never a tough challenge, PvP is stupid and random. So we see low players like Parting, Hurricane and herO in ro16. Why was herO able to recover after the break in just several months? Taeja and MMA gave up on it, Fantasy and Dream are struggling but nowhere close to what herO was able to achieve. Parting was not even planning to come back to pro. That just happened naturally because protoss is… you know, what it is now. This is really bad for SC2 scene.

1 Like
11

The last time someone did a proxy gate to cancel my natural I one based them with 4 rax 1 factory 1 starport. 1 siege tank 1 liberator and stim bio at like 5 minutes was too much. Indeed they were greedy and made a third but it worked.

12

Proxy is not gone. It’s been meta for the past two months.

13

I love how we removed the mothership core and buffed chrono and gave toss a mineral only defense structure that they can build reactively, but now we’re wondering why protoss is so strong.

Gee idk, maybe taking 100/100 out of their opening builds and letting them go straight to their timings while also buffing their macro mechanic and letting them defend full blown rushes with pure minerals wasnt such a great plan?

6 Likes
14

Hey, do we need both tho ? I mean, Ghost in TVP are IMO mostly to counter storms + remove zealots’s shield. This buff (easier to control, means more realiable) makes them better at countering storm. So my question is, do we still need to nerf storm a “tiny tiny bit”?

Or do we nerf storm a “tiny tiny bit” and forget about buffing Ghost ?

I don’t have a strong oppinion, just wanted to point out that a liitle buff + a lille nerf on the same direction can be dangerous.

P.S : Love the new forum, looks worst than the old one on first look, but damn it’s enjoyable writing in there.

15

So, a Terran player is realistically expected to:

Split against storm
Kite against storms
Split and seige mines
Individually seige all libertors in the ideal direction
Emp
Not slip on macro

While the Protoss is expected to:
Attack move
Blink forward on liberators
Cast storms…

There was a game in GSL v world whete Guniho was up 60 supply and he got stormed to death… 3rd best Terran player in the world… can’t take adavtange of a 60 army supply lead… Learn to play!!!

0 out of the 8 in IEM, 1 out of 8 GSL v W, and 1 out of 8 in the GSL. But YOU watched the GSL and YOU know EXACTLY what the best players in the world are doing wrong.

Maybe they should hire you as a coach?

8 Likes
16

Short answer, NO AND NO

Long answer
No, Ghost is already one of the best units in the Terran arsenal, it’s got nukes, EMP, snipes and does TONS of burst damage with their basic attacks (20+ versus light with upgrades) giving them stim would literally break the game because they could be much faster than they already are and be unmanageable, would make them as fast, or faster then speedglings out of creep.

No, Storm is fine as it is, High templar already received some really serious nerfs with the feedback damage reduction which made the ghost vs templar war really favor the terran without good prism micro usage, adding 0.5sec delay to a non instant damage spell like this would make it terrible, especially if you see how good the terrans above 5K8-6K have gotten to deal with dodging spells. It would litteraly make the HT so bad. You have to understand that Storm and prism is one of the only mechanics that make late game possible for Protoss against terran because ghosts really hard counter them. Collosus get hard countered by vikings and disruptors are just plain outright bad right now versus terran because they’re just too good at splitting their stuff on time.

Not even mentioning how much of a problem nerfing storm would be against zerg in mid to lategame.

1 Like
17

Stop lying to yourself, we all know how bad you are at covering the fact you literally have unbeatable lategame with BC, ghosts thors and siege tanks, don’t lie to yourself I got plenty of replays showing how much more stronger terran late game is than any of the current late games.

1 Like
18

The only way to balance Storm with 0.5 sec delay would be to make it last ftom 3 to 1.5-2 sec for the 80 damage.
But whineterrans would cry again…

1 Like
19

Again here, lies. It has been proven mathematically TIME AND TIME AGAIN, that the new chronoboost is not a buff, not a nerf, but actually a change. It’s got the SAME effect as before, the only difference being that you start with a chronoboost to make up for the fact they cost 50 energy when they used to be active all the time and costed nothing (remember when chrono was the same but with 25 energy requirements ? 50% nerf from the HOTS version. NO MACRO MECHANICS has had a 50% nerf from their HOTS iterations, Larva was a 25% nerf, and mule was approximately 20% nerf)

Now you’re talking about the Shield battery, excuse me how often do you even see them built ? I mean I rarely even see them built outside of mineral lines to defend against banshees in order not to lose 50 probes because observers are slow as hell. You actually have to invest money in every single of your bases instead of a 100/100 all around unit that does slow, pylon overcharge and recall and you still cry about imbalance ? Damn the terrans who ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE sure are a joke these days

1 Like
20

Your suggestions are very interesting, I also think that the problem in TvP lies in those 2 problems: storm and the difficulty of handling the terran units.

I have some balance mods (Community Test Mod) that have been used by the balance team to implement changes in the multiplayer and now I am suggesting some things to improve the TvP:

-High Templar “Psi Storm” speed damage is 10% slower: from 2.855 to 3.14 seconds
-Added “Research Optical Magnification” upgrade to Ghost Academy
-Optical Magnification increases attack range of Ghost by 1
-Battlecruiser “Tactical Jump” takes longer to finish the teleportation
-Supply Depot “Lower” and “Raise” commands have been separated into two distinct keys
-Raven has Supervision Mode ability: Raven gains 25% wider vision but loses the ability to move
-Raven “Build Auto-Turret” ability range increased to 3