Co-op reworking ideas according to own experience and user feedbacks

Hello Everybody,

I wanted to share several of my ideas coming from experience about co-op commanders and mutators and how to make them more exciting, balanced and logical. I also included several ideas of my friends as well as others on the forum which I also found good ideas.

Note that I wrote them as facts, as they would apear in the patch notes. They are just ideas which I’d love to see live.

Oppinions are welcome! :slight_smile:

General:
-Commanders’ level talents use corrected grammar and explain their changes with exact numbers.
-Vipers cannot abduct immobile units.
-Amon’s Motherships gain 100% increased life and shields.
-Amon’s Ghosts can no longer call down nukes on high ground without vision.
-All kinds of infested structures gains both the Biological and the Mechanical tag. Bio dome changes from Light to Armored.
-Gift exchange mutator available in Custom mutations.

Raynor:
-Spider mines return to their original place if not triggered for 5 seconds.

Kerrigan:
-Immobilization wave slows down Massive units instead of freezing them. Heroic and Massive units take only half the damage from it.
-While using leaping strike and psionic shift Kerrigan takes 20% less damage.
-Chain reaction prioritizes air units.
-Level 15 talent ‘Queen of Blades’ provides the ‘Improved overlords’ upgrade (from Heart of the Swarm) which makes overlords to morph instantly and provide 50% more control (supply).

Artanis:
-Archons’ starting energy is equal to the two templars’ actual energy altogether. This means that their starting energy can be 400. This extra energy does not get lost over time, but if it gets below 200 it cannot go up above it again.
-Archons deal double splash damage and their psionic storm deals double damage and restores double shields at twice speed to friendly units while their energy is above 200.
-Archons’ starting life and shields are equal in percent to the merging templars’ same stats’ average.
-Archons can pass through friendly units.
-Tempests have no separated attacks for ground and air. The ground attack’s stats apply against air units too.
-Desintegration deals 500 damage under 10sec, down from 20sec.
-Desintegration deals splash damage in a 1-range area around the targeted unit. Total splash damage is 100 under 10sec.

Swann:
-When using vespene harvester for the first time, both players hear the other commander’s thanking.
-Level 1 talent’s description re-written. It states 20% faster production than “base rate” instead of “other commanders”.
-SCVs benefit from the ‘Regenerative biosteel’ upgrade.
-Cyclones gain increased damage, dealing 24 vs massive which increases by +4 with each upgrade. This does not effect the lock-on ability.
-Cyclones gain +2 attack range and lock-on range.
-Cyclones’ lock-on ability decreases enemy units’ attack speed and movement speed by 15% in a 2-range area around the targeted unit.
-Thors have their ground attack range apply for air attack as well. Parallel with this they prioritize to use the bigger damage-dealing attack against their targets.
-Level 13 talent automatically provides Wraiths the ‘Tomahawk Power Cells’ upgrade (from Wings of Liberty) which gives them +100 starting energy.
-Wraiths reduce all incoming damage while cloaked by 30% replacing the 20% evading after research.
-Wraiths automatically cloak themselves at the first time their health goes below 50%. They do not lose this ability if they are already cloaked.

Zagara:
-Kerrigan’s Level 4 talent ‘Spawning pool upgrade cache’ 's description copeied to Zagara’s Level 6 talent, because they both provide the same.
-Fixed the population indicator to no longer mess when it comes to 1/2 and 1/3 supply in case of Drones, Zerglins and Scourges. It writes the higher number instead of following the rounding rule.

Vorazun:
-Dark archons can pass through friendly units.
-Corsairs do not place multiple distruption webs at places that are already covered by this ability.
-Time Stop reveals objectives even if it does not effect them.

Karax:
-The commander is included in Zeratul’s after-match ‘Shields restored’ stats similarly to how Stetmann is included in Zagara’s ‘Damage done by Banelings and Scourge’ one.
-Nexus chrono activates automatically for all protoss commanders when paired with Karax and for him as well.
-Level 5 talent ‘Chrono overload’ effects gas harvesting structures, adding +5 gas every second per structure.
-Each ‘Solar efficiency level’ research costs -50 minerals and gas.
-Energizers gain increased damage, dealing 12 vs biological which increases by +2 with each upgrade.
-Reclamation’s cooldown changed to 90sec, down from 120sec.
-Reclaimed units add to the supply count.
-Energizers can attack and cast chrono beam simultaneously.
-Shadow cannon’s cooldown changed to 30sec, down from 45sec.
-Mirages’ attack reworked, dealing bonus dmg vs armored instead of light.
-‘Chrono Wave Energy Generation’ mastery replaced with ‘Spear of Adun Cooldown Reduction’ (effecting: Solar lance, Chrono wave, Purifier beam and Unity barrier). Each point adds +1sec. Initial cooldowns are not changed.
-‘Repair Beam Healing Rate’ mastery renamed to ‘Reconstruction Beam Healing Rate’ and reworked. Each point adds 2,5%.

Abathur:
-Limited to 100 supply.
-Level 13 talent ‘Locust injection’ replaced with ‘Automated extractors’.
-Toxic nests on autocast explode when the 1st enemy unit gets farther from the middle point, instead of exploding when a unit touches their edge.
-Brutalisk and Leviathan morphs’ autocast removed.
-Only those units have a yellow flash which collected 100 biomass. Under this quantity they only grow in size.
-Brutalisk morph costs 300 minerals, 200 gas and 4 supply.
-Leviathan morph costs 350 minerals, 150 gas and 6 supply.
-Symbiote targets the host ultimate’s primary target (if it can reach it).
-Level 15 talent ‘Biotic leech’ replaced with ‘Evolution Professor’ which allows Brutalisks and Leviathans to collect additional 25+50 biomass. For the first 25 biomass they gain +0,5% per point increased attack speed and life regeneration and their symbiotes also receive this attack speed. If the 25 biomass is collected the symbiote gains +1 attack range. The further 50 biomass do not change anything for them. They carry and give those to the 1st player unit that gets within 1 range.
-‘Double Biomass Chance’ mastery replaced with ‘Maximum supply’ which adds +1 per point.

Alarak:
-Alarak can be selected and moved at 4:00 into the game.
-Death Fleet’s initial cooldown set to 360sec.

Nova:
-Level 1 talent’s description enforced, units are indeed resistant to stun effects (special infested, void slivers, mutators, etc).

Stukov:
-Level 1 talent allows the Micro filtering upgrade which makes SCVs gather vespene gas 25% faster (bringing 5 each trip).
-Volatile infested and Broodlings follow the Psi emitter’s signal.
-Level 3 talent adds 20% chance for Infested civilians to spawn as Volatile infested.
-‘Volatile Infested Spawn Chance’ mastery replaced with ‘Factory and Starport Unit Life Regeneration’ which adds +3,5% regeneration speed per point.
-Infest structure gains additional 1 charge with each Infestation level upgrade.
-‘Infest Structure Cooldown’ mastery reworked. It modifies -2,5% per point.
-Infested troopers live for 15 seconds outside of the bunker.
-Infested missile turrets benefit from bunker and marine upgrades (double as fast life regeneration, +3 armor, +1 attack range and plagued munitions).
-Level 13 talent provides Brood queens with +100 maximum energy too.

Fenix:
-Level 1 talent’s description enforced, suits do not regenerate energy within Stetmann’s J.U.I.C.E. configuration.
-Conservators have higher selection priority than distruptors.
-Distruptors cost 3 supply.
-Purification nova’s cooldown decreased by 5 seconds.

Dehaka:
-Primal hives, wardens and wurms do not cost supply.
-Primal hives and wardens are not included in All army selection.
-Greater primal wurm’s tech requirement is Primal warden.
-Greater primal wurm’s basic charges are 2, but it gets an additional maximum charge with each Pack leader building.
-The first Greater primal wurm does not start on cooldown.
-Greater primal wurms’ deep tunnel has a 15-second cooldown.
-Basic gene mutation chance increased by 50%.

Han & Horner:
-Maximum 3 Magmines activate on the same target at once.
-Hangar bay upgrade costs -50% gas.
-Hangar bay’s tech requirement is Engineering bay.
-Level 11 talent ‘Endurance training’ also allows Fighter drones to repair the host Galleon while out of combat. The repair speed depends on the number of fighters. Each unit repairs 3 life per second.

Tychus:
-Medic AI issued on Nikara.
-The Odin has its ground attack range apply for air attack as well. Parallel with this it prioritizes to use the bigger damage-dealing attack against its targets.
-The Odin can be targeted by anti-air attacks.
-Auto turrets benefit from attack and armor upgrades.
-Cannonball gains the Massive tag.
-Vega’s dominated units add to the supply count.
-Vega’s damage is increased by +50%.
-Nux deals double damage vs Massive units. This does not effect Ultrasonic pulse.

Zeratul:
-When paired with Arcturus the Enlistment center is no longer covered with a blue shade.
-Level 3 talent’s description corrected about the Ambushers’ void apparition’s damage (50% instead of 200% as it was previously changed).
-Ambushers teleport away from the place the threatening damage came from instead of teleporting backwards.
-Shield guards do not activate reflective shield on autocast if they are within an activated field.
-Abrogators’ purification nova does not add to the ‘Units produced’ stats at the end of the mission.
-Avatar of Form’s Charged crystals are included in the All army selection.
-Shade projections have -30% cooldown if the previous projection was not destroyed.
-Serdath legion can pass through friendly units.

Stetmann:
-Level 15 talent ‘Mechnum Opus’ provides the player’s combat structures with 50 egonergy and makes them benefit from stetzone configurations at a 25% efficiency. Spine crawlers benefit from ‘Hardened egonergy shield’ Zergling upgrade, Spore crawlers benefit from ‘Tyr-class targeting system’ Hydralisk upgrade, while both benefit from ‘Synthetic adrenal pumps’ Zergling upgrade.

Arcturus:
-Medic AI issued on Intercessors.
-Intercessors do not pick up units they are rallied to upon creation.
-Witnesses in patriot mode have lower selection priority than troopers.

Mutators:
-Safe zone corrected on Oblivion express at the left base.
-Mutators do not target nor damage objectives.
-Aggressive deployment does not drop in safe zone.
-The first Void rift spawns at 4 minutes into the game.
-Heroes from the Storm on Dead of Night spawns heroes at the start of each night and with each attack wave instead of 6-10 heroes during the 2nd night and so on. Heroes no longer spawn with waves that come from Nydus worms.
-Heroes from the Storm heroes are not immune to Dehaka’s devour ability.
-Heroes from the Storm heroes have -50% life.
-When Transmutation is active special infested, Dehaka hero and each race’s hero ships (Loki, Leviathan, Mothership) do not transform into anything else.
-When Polarity is active, uncontrollable abilities do not target enemies that they cannot damage.
-Avengered units receive half the improvement towards their attack speed and life regeneration.
-Power overwhelming’s Point defense drones no longer block players’ top bar abilities (like Concentrated beam) and unit abilities (like Yamato).
-Power overwhelming units can be targeted by Feedback.
-Power overwhelming units cannot use abilities if they are stunned.
-Power overwhelming abilities respect safe zones.
-Massive units take 50% weaker and shorter effects from Fear, Fatal attraction, Blizzard, Twister, Time warp and Concussive attacks.
-Temporal field causes Massive units the same slowing effects like it does to Heroics, instead of freezing them completely.
-Heroic units take 50% shorter effect from Moment of Silence and Fear.
-Fatal attraction and Moment of Silence have -40% range.
-Fatal attraction does not pull immobile units (including lurker and mine types, sieged tanks and detector units that are switched to immobile mode)
-Concussive attack’s effects last for 20 seconds.

Hope to hear from more and more people.
With best regards,
Mazso

3 Likes

No. The whole point of the Viper was to give Zerg a way to hard counter things like Siege Tanks. You would know this if you were around in the HotS pre-release days when they showcased the Viper. Better yet, if you had actually played the HotS campaign and did the Mutalisk Evolution Mission.

Why?

They can’t do that anyway. Amon’s vision is really weird, but he does have access to scans.

Soooo why are we nerfing Kerrigan?

This is a bad change, given that the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade exists and already sets their energy to full. This would make proper usage of High Templars to be null and void.

??? Plasma Charge is an upgrade you know. No point for this to exist.

Totally unnecessary nerf. This would kill the usage of Archons in a heartbeat.

Why?

Cyclones are not Marauders. This change is not necessary.

When engaging an enemy, they should be cloaked to begin with.

That… is a major burst in gas. That’s 40 gas per second, over 20 seconds, resulting in a net gain of 800 gas. Not factoring in the amount you mine and possible Swann ally. That’s… No. This is totally unnecessary.

We already had it cheapened. These upgrades are not the problem. It’s the unit tax.

This should be a -1, not a +1. +1 would make the cooldowns longer not shorter. Look at the Raynor Banshee/Hyperion Masteries.

Seems a bit much, don’t it?

This would do the exact same thing as it does now. If they touch the edge, it’s still the furthest point, regardless of which direction they touched it in.

So you have to manually tell them to evolve? Or just removing the ability to evolve altogether?

More pointless nerfs. This means you have to burn 12 supply for your Brutalisks and 18 supply for Leviathans, effectively eating 30 of your 100 supply. 45 of that goes toward Drones, so that’s 75 of your 100. You REALLY hate Abathur.

Both of these are absolutely TERRIBLE. You want to make the ultimate evolutions even stronger? AND have them gobble up the biomass that could be used on other important units? On top of this, ruining the Double Biomass Chance on certain Brutations?
I’m not one to normally bring Brutations into this but jeez man. This is a whole lot of no from me so far, dog.

That’s a hard nerf. Like, jeez man. Stukov is already boring and mindless as is. Now you want to kill him again? Wasn’t his death at the hands of Duran, and then again from Kevin enough?

Why? Disruptors give more value and are better offensive units.

No. This would make them the fastest Carrier-type unit in the game to make. Keep it at the Fusion Core.

The first actually good change you’ve suggested thus far. Wow.

Cannonball is not a massive unit, and doesn’t need the tag. You have plenty of options for dealing with force fields.

Vega doesn’t need more buffs.

Naaah. Cannons are fine as they are. They don’t need to be rebuffed from where they’re at now.

2 Likes

Okay, that’s a big no for the Abathur.
If they were more macro-oriented changes I would be fine, but these ones makes so the ultimate evolutions are the only worth units, if anything, Abathur becomes a one-trick hyper-agressive commander, before it was a effective option, but these changes makes it a demand.
I wonder what’s the point in making swarm hosts if you can only have like 5 of them due to supply in 2 base eco.

1 Like

I’ve gotten my main mineral line nuked on OE from ghosts on the low ground. I think that’s what he’s trying to prevent.

2 Likes

That… I am 90% sure is from Amon scanning and dropping it. I’ve had it happen before, myself.

I don’t see why Amon would scan there though. He only tends to scan if he’s getting attacked by cloaked units

2 Likes

I played the whole campaign several times. You might be right in this. Then maybe just add the feature to burrowed units.

Just logically incorrect that it has 350/350, when the Leviathan has 2000 and the Loki has 1500 life.

I would like to boost massive units. At this time they are just massive, beacuse they can break force fields and immune to gravition beam. You can see, I have several ideas of changing massive units in a positive way. Apart from this I also added positive things to Kerrigan, to compensate this.

I see the problem here, thank you. This should be re-thought.

Because they cannot and get stuck behind dragons for example. And they are massive and energy bubbles that might find a place between other units.

This actually wasn’t my own idea. First I wanted to add extra armor while using lock-on. I just want to make cyclones to be used more often.

Yes. This should help if you are being engaged while not paying attention or those who just forget to turn it on, or newbies who do not know.

I think that’s 20 gas per second for both players. One player has 4 gas harvesting structures optimally.

Yes, but in a recent patch they described that they wanted certain commanders including Karax to tech up easier. They made infestation levels cheaper, but not solar efficiency.

Raynor’s masteries don’t contain the “reduction” word. In their case " - " is the good, in this case the " + ". If I reduce with negative, I increase it.

You don’t need 200 supply for Abathur in my oppinion. His units are strong enough.

Not exactly. Toxic nests would sense that units go farther from their middle point, not nearer. So they would only explode when the enemy unit passed the middle. I was thinking a lot about this, to make toxic nests smarter when you don’t pay attention to them. I have no idea how this can be done real. What I wanted to reach is that they don’t explode on the first unit that touches them.

The point is that Abathur is too strong in the early game. Seeing half of the map cleared in the 5th minute is not what the partners would like to see I think. Plus logically. An ultralisk costs 300/200/6. A Brutalisk costs 100 minerals and 2 supply when it’s way more powerful than an ultralisk and can ttak air as well. That’s why I added extra resources and supply requirement. It would be 36 drones (because of automated extractors) and 42 supply on ultimates including the unit they merge from. Yes, that seemed a bit too much for me as well. But I would strenghten utimates as I wrote and add a mastery for further increasing max supply by 30. Btw from my own experience, having full saturation on minerals with Abathur makes thousands of minerals which I cannot use. So don’t neccessary need 36 drones.

Hold your horses and keep the respect! If you don’t agree with something you don’t have to call others names. Weren’t you taught this when you were a child?

I wanted to seperate infested play and mech play. If you use the infested infantry duration mastery they live for 45 seconds. if you don’t then you want to play mech. In that case you don’t need troopers.

Because from my logic you would first set up the power field, then use the purification nova. Your army could suffer a serious damage if you first shoot with distruptors (not counting if they haven’t arrived yet).

My other idea about this was to reduce their gas cost to half.

This is not basically about force fields. It is my intent to make massive units feel more massive and I’ve read several comments that Cannonball is still not good enough. Counting the other ideas about resisting certain mutators to a part, Cannonball could gain a huge benefit.

I somehow wanted to compensate that her dominated units add to the supply count. Currently her damage is 20 (40 vs light), so it would be 30 (60 vs light).

But why? They’re carriers, they should cost as much as carriers.

Their supply cost is also half as the carriers’.

Nevertheless. What points did you like especially from the original post?

And…? Is that a problem? If anything, a HIGHER supply cost for assault galleons could be helpful cuz significant others

Why would that be a problem? You asked why, I replied. I gave a reason to my statement.

Changing things implies things need to be changed. You suggested bringing requirement down to engi bay or cutting gas cost. My reaction was, “whoa this guy must really think carrier assault galleons suck if he wants to buff them this much.” Is your actual justification for such huge buffs “they cost 3 supply”?

As for the original post, raynor mines are gonna lag the game to crap when you have 100 spider mines keeping track of their own homes and having internal timers for how long they’re idle. why are you buffing dehaka at all? If you really don’t want to see structures cost supply, their remove supply cost only after dropping dehaka’s supply to 150 or something. Why is stukov of all commanders the one who gets extra gas?
Those are the ones that caught my eye anyway

I like primal worms being tied to the primal warden for getting detection earlier in the game. That would be nice for certain mutations with speedy cloaked units who end the game that are barreling towards your base.

Not gonna lie though, when I saw how you massacred Abathur, i thought Dehaka was done for.

Nice

I actually like how early they spawn now. It presents a challenge that makes it feel unique as opposed to it being just another small attack wave coming at your base. Putting it at 4 minutes removes the monkaS feelings about void rifts and I think removes some of the fun and satisfaction in beating it. Having to re-think your strategies or build orders to conquer is also fun. As it stands now, void rifts provide a unique challenge. To change it to 4 minutes would just make it more bland and removes a lot of the challenge associated with it.

I can a get behind these. Specifically for fatal attraction and concussive, “why in the f&$& am I still slow?” attacks.

Fear feels really bad sometimes for dehaka at the beginning of the game. It’s not insurmountable though.

2 Likes

Nothing of a problem. I agree

I would rather have Spider Mines target further and faster

Don’t debuff Immobilisation Wave.
Rest are good, also include Improve Mastery 3.2
Have Rapid Regeneration to activate when Mutalisks move around (like Primal Mutalisk)
Have Broodlords benefit from Rapid Regeneration.

No to Archon Improvements Yes to Tempest Improvements.
Also, make Disintegration and splash abilities to stack, but halve 100 damage under 10 seconds to 50.
Phoenix Lifting massive units would be nice.

Yes to all except for Wraiths cloaking themselves.
have Swann’s Tech Lab be available to Raynor when paired

Yes to All.
Hunter Killer selection superceded other units other than Zagara. Please fix
Improve Corruptors and have them benefit from -50 gas deduction.
Zagara’s Drop should affect air, also could produce Corpser Strain.

Yes to Corsairs changes and objectives, No to Archons .
Have Dark Pylon Cloaking effect persist for 8 seconds after leaving.
Void Rays has increased speed like in ladder (speed 3.5)
Time Stop Recharge Solar Energies Faster.

probes should have ranged building (4 range)
Make it harvest +2 Gas per structure because Karax is gas hungry and slow starter. Restricted to their own expansion. Also Allies should benefit.
Yes to Shadow Cannons, Ok for Mirages.
Chrono Wave Energy Regeneration can be replaced with “Combat Unit Cost” by 15%.
Yes to Repair Beam but tweak it to 2%.

Excluding Automated Extractors, NO.
Make Locust upgrade cheaper (100/100)

Improve Death Fleet’s Destroyers
Destroyer’s Destruction Beam Splits should also benefit from upgrades (Main Beam get upgrade but not the splitting beams).
Alarak’s Lightning Surge should increase Unit Speed by 40% for 30 seconds.
Telekinesis Improves Destruction Wave by 50%
Overwhelming Presence adds slow to Destruction Wave

OK to all.

Agreed with with Volatile and Broodling ideas.
Give Mech units to burrow for Regen instead of mastery change.
No with Infested Structure ideas
No for Bunker ideas
No for Missile Turret ideas (their cost is 100 cheap for a reason)

  • Yes on Brood Queen ideas. also change their Energy regen from 1 > 1.5 per sec

Increase Avenging Protocol Duration from 20 seconds to much longer.
Yes to all.
Enable Distruptors to auto attack.

Enable Wurms to cost no supply. Reduce Costs to 200
Greater Primal Wurm should be enabled at Glevig’s Den but enable it immediately as soon as it constructed (Agreed).
Also their burrow should be 30 sec and requires no vision (but cannot do it under the fog)
3 is enough
Basic Units may benefit from Gene mutations but only limited to one mutation.
Dehaka can Climb higher areas like Colossus
Perhaps enable Unique Mutation to other Evolved Units. (Like Tyrannozor and Creeper Hosts)??

No to others but Yes on Galleon Upgrades.
Also enable Galleons to gain +100 health with Hangar upgrade.

I happily agree

What do you mean by this? They can use each other’s add-ons if they land there.

They already have an autoattack.

That would be a buff to massive units, but in case people would think it as Immo-wave’s debuff I wrote some positive for Kerrigan herself.

That’s one of the most recognisable abilities for massive units. I don’t find this a good idea.

This would come in pair with max supply 100. Abathur is too strong. 3 brutalisks clear at least half of the map between the 5th and 10th minute of the game. Other commanders are nowhere near him. That’s why I wanted to cause later brutalisks. Right now you have a brutalisk for 100 minerals and 2 supply. Compensating this I’d make them and their symbiotes a little stronger by collecting biomass.

If that’d be a thing, then only after reaching level 10. From that time he is vulnerable to anti-air attacks.

That sounds really good.

It’s similar to Abathur’s nydus worm benefitting with Kerrigan’s Omega worm when paired with her.
This can work for Raynor and Swann

Really? Ok

I have a problem of her Immobilisation Wave not doing anything to structures, but with people accepting what it is I accepted it. They are OK as they are man.

Ok, fair enough.

Abathur is fine in terms of supplies, I find Roaches as great chunky meat shields. Abathur is strong but he is weak without Biomass. I don’t think nerfing Supply is necessary. Ravagers however needs some tiny nerf.

yup

When I play 150 Minerals, 200 gas and 3 supplies I expected Galleons to get more than just drones. Besides the Galleons are vulnerable heavy attacks and spells so I want them to have bit of compensation.

I would like for me to see how those changes would play out in practice(Atleast, with my skills. Have to be a bit hacky around the base commander stuff, the supply, and with the Archon Energy). I will see how all of these changes play out by implementing them myself.

As for me personally, I hope you meant that the cooldown reduction reduces time and not adds time, like how someone might think it does. Else, that’s one sore 30 second CD Orbital strike Karax will have.

1 Like

Also adding that Raynor’s Dusk wings should benefit from the +2 range for cloaked banshees after the research. I recently tried this out and they don’t.

3 Likes

It happens when ghost see an edge of building if it adjacent to cliff, or some raven/medivac was flying nearby to give ghost vision. Ghosts don’t have hg vision at all.

To be fair, Dusk Wings are one of Raynor’s most useful assets. Giving them +2 range lets them attack static defense structures outside of its range, which is dangerous. I would say tie it to the cloak upgrade, but that would mean people would have to esoterically build a starport just to get +2 range for dusk wings, which is kinda stupid, especially if you’re not planning on a air raynor build.

1 Like