Post Patch (update Oct 23) Since reducing upgrade costs and bringing back team maps with large amts of negative space beyond the perimeter of a communal base, Air Toss now has even more of an advantage. Combine that with SC2 player’s proclivity to lean toward air toss, it’s making Team Games unbearable. Voids aren’t as much of a problem as Carriers with 5 auto spawn units per Carrier (interceptors). This has always been a persistent problem that the Community just tolerated because of costly defenses like infestor, mines, etc. But now, with casual players and novices going straight carrier because of map layouts in 4’s, it’s become an untenable issue.
I have bad news, nobody would change a balance because of team games. Balance only matters in 1vs1. Team games are not balanced and never would be.
See that just means that certain number their power over exceeds balance ideal because max army in 1 vs 1 is not balanced.
Difference in teams it points out the unbalance very quickly.
Problem blizzard tried to balance it threw mineral cost witch is dumb because that much higher return vs pop limit.
Best ways fix this is give it ground or air only so no matter how op it would have. It can still be hard counter. Problem is only Zerg has that problem.
Even bc once hit certain number can’t be countered anymore
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Sorry, but I can barely understand your points.
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Airtoss is the ultimate composition, just like mass BC. It is meant to destroy cheap T1, T2 units.
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Anything happening in team games has no influence on 1vs1, as for example Zerg completely suck in team games by the default.
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What return, what pop-limit? Are you speaking about damage/per supply? Interceptors have a damage or 5. The damage of a probe. Most players research attack first, so carriers deal 6,7,8 damage, drastically importing its damage. There is no problem with that especially when enemy units have priority on carriers since few patches.
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What air or ground only? What would be OP? I have 0 clue. Write a normal point please.
Yea, I agree with Stryker. Carriers are OP
Not exactly. SC2 isn’t really a “Tier” based system, although it does have some element of “tier levels” to it. The game is based primarily around counters. Its why Marines, Lings, Zealots and all manner of lower tier units still remain viable in some way. Lings counter thors, for example, and marines to some extent counter carriers. Which is why you build a composition, rather than massing any one unit, at least outside of team games.
Pretty much this, though it cannot be said in reverse.
Actually, they do 5x2 damage per interceptor up to 8x2 at max upgrades, for a total of 8(8x2). This is extremely significant because of how it interracts with armour in the game - effectively armour counts twice for every interceptor attack. The lower the armour value, the more damage they do.
It’s why some people consider ultras a very effective counter to carriers despite them being unable to hit air, since carriers literally tickle ultras to death, and why BCs and corruptors (though slightly less so) are an incredibly hard counter to carriers, since they have so much armour. Interceptors literally do 2 damage to ultras per attack, and only do marginally more to corruptors and BCs. The math looks something like this: 8(((5+u)-a)2) where a is the armour value of the enemy unit, and u is the level of attack upgrades the carrier had. So for ultras, assuming max upgrades for both, it looks like this: 8(((5+3)-7)2)=2 damage per interceptor, for 16 total damage to ultras with all interceptors per attack.
Compare that to marines with no upgrades for example 8(((5+3)-0)2)=16 damage per interceptor, for 128 damage total with all interceptors in attack. It’s quite a significant difference. Even just adding 3 armour from upgrades to the marine reduces that to 80, which is a staggering damage reduction, especially for higher HP units.
The point is that they do a ton of damage, but armour upgrades mitigate that significantly.
As for priority… it really depends on the unit. Some units definitely prefer targeting the carrier. Others prefer the oldntargeting. High dps low range units like marines, or high damage splash units likr mines typically prefer killing off interceptors. However higher base damage units like thors generally prefer focusing the carriers themselves.
Carriers aren’t strictly busted in team games, but they, much like BCs aren’t particularly fun to play against, and they’re very hard for weaker teams to deal with, especially since it’s much easier to hit that critical mass when you have teammates defending and supporting you. It’s much easier for them to become nigh unstoppable in that setting as a result.
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On bc takes 4 corrupters because cannon this means that Zerg has window where bc can’t be countered because of pop limit.
Carriers has same problem
That was exactly my point. Most zerg players will always make upgrades for corruptors attack instead of armor first and wonder why they die to carriers so fast.
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Dude, You have so many incongruent points and they’re all over the place that I don’t even think you know what you’re trying to say, tbh.
I thought the → in the upper right corner clearly points to Miro and not to you.
But I am willing to help you understand:
Here I am saying that a lot of players for some reason making attack upgrade first, which makes no sense against the carriers.
Here he explains, that every armor upgrade heavily reduces the amount of the damage carriers deal, which is the reason I was saying that making attack upgrade first against the carriers is a wrong choice.
and here I agree and say that a lot of players skip on armor and go for attack upgrades first. Especially zergs, when they have a single spire, which is not the best idea against a player with mass carriers for the reasons mentioned above.
I hope that helps you to understand the issue and make armor upgrades, which would be very helpful against the carriers.
Equal sup of corruptors kills equal sup of BCs depending on the number. BCs don’t have the damage output outside of yamato specifically to kill corruptors - or anything with high armour - fast. Their AA attack is actually worse than their AtG attack too, and corruptors do bonus damage to massive units as well, so their damage output is quite high for a 200 hp 2 base armour unit.
Frankly speaking, Corruptors shred Tempests, Carriers, and BCs alike. The only thing they struggle with is the splash damage from supporting units, if there are any at all.
In fact, their damage output is so good that they will actually beat most air units including the void-ray (as long as it isn’t charged) which is supposed to be its counter. Even vikings are pretty mediocre vs them for much the same reason carriers are (2 attacks).
I’m going to assume you’re responding to me, in which case I’m not sure you read my response at all. The intention was to have a discussion, though I can only assume you’re looking for an echo chamber. If that’s not your intent, then I apologise. Anyway, I made a few points in my post, but here’s a summary:
Firstly, the point is that, even though carriers do have high damage output, they also scale really, really poorly against armour upgrades.
Secondly, even though I disagree with you that Carriers (in particular, but the problem also extends to BCs) are overpowered, I agree that they are not fun to play against, even though they have their counters, and that they tend to create extremely boring games when they’re rushed and massed.
Generally this isn’t an issue in 1v1 because it’s a lot easier to stop or at least slow them long enough for you to get your own counters up, but in team-games it’s harder to do because their teammates can cover for them until they hit that critical mass.
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I would assume the logic is that more attack is generally better than more armour since splash damage - particularly storm and widow mines, both being spell damage - generally isn’t particularly affected by armour outside of a couple specific examples (thor AA, liberator AA, Muta bounce).
That and the damage increase from attack upgrades significantly increases the damage of corruptors by quite a bit. Further to that, the more damage you do, the faster you kill the thing you’re targeting. The faster you kill it, the more you cut the DPS/Damage output of your opponent’s units, which means your units are more likely to survive longer.
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Yeah, so no one here needs a Miro Interpreter. Everyone can understand Him just fine without any intervention from you. It’s unnecessary and furthers only confusion, regardless of your intent.
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Wouldn’t it be – 5 Interceptors x ((5+3)-7) x 2) = 10. Where are you getting 8 eight from?
I agree with everything you’ve said.
8 interceptors is the maximum number a carrier can hold. Obviously, the damage output decreases drastically if there are less interceptors.
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nonono i want my steak with my lobster
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A-1 steak sauce - and - salted garlic butter?