Bunker Refit (Rush Related)

First let me say that this is more of a response to rushes generally, which have an extremely high win rate.

This post will be about Bunkers in comparison to other defensive structures based off of resource cost. We will look at build time, DPS, hit points, utility, range, support options, and upgrades

First we need to establish the cost. 1 Bunker (100) with 4 Marines (200) costs 300 minerals. This is 2 photon Cannons, or 2 Spine Crawlers.

To start let’s look at build times. Bunkers build in 29 seconds as do Photon Cannons, but Spine Crawlers build in 36 seconds. The difference here is the Bunker needs Marines which take 18 seconds to build 1 at a time which is 72 seconds. Even if you build a Reactor it takes 36 seconds to build which means it takes 72 seconds to build 4 marines 2 at a time. The best case senario is having a Barracks with a reactor already on it which would put you at 36 seconds. This means in best case scenarios you would be slightly worse off then a Zerg player which could build 2 Spine Crawlers, which net you more DPS.

Next let’s look at the DPS difference between the structures. A bunker with 4 Marines does 39.3 DPS, two photon cannons have a DPS of 44.8, finally Spine Crawlers have a DPS of 37.8 increasing to 45.4 versus Armored targets. Keep in mind they have have the Least hit points (HP).

HP is next, we are going to be looking at effective HP, that is how much damage it actually takes to kill the building and units inside including armor, this is simpler then it sounds. Bunkers have 400 HP with 1 armor and 4 Marines with 180 HP with 0 armor. Two Spine Crawlers have 600 HP with 2 Armor. Two Photon Cannons have 600 HP total, 300 Shields and 300 HP, at Armor 1. From here we can see Zerg have the most durable defence structures, prior to support and upgrades. Protoss have slightly more HP with more overall armor. Which means Terrans have less HP. An example would be against a single Marine the Spine Crawlers would have an EHP of 900 while the Bunker and Marines would have an EHP of 660, and the Photon Cannons would have 720 EHP. This of course varies by unit, but regardless of the situation the Bunker and Marines will die faster no matter what.

Utility can be as, and sometimes more, important then Damage and HP. Photon Cannons can attack both ground and air and have detection. In short no matter what is happening Photon Cannons will help. Spine Crawlers can move, which allows them to be built in a safe location, then moved to where you need them. Bunkers with Marines can shoot air and ground, and can move, but become hyper vulnerable while on the move. The Bunker also has the salvage ability which let’s you recover 75% of its cost. Over all Bunkers have some utility but tead to fall just short

The ranges are pretty strait forward. Spine Crawlers have 7, Photon Cannons have 7, Bunkers add 1 to the Marines range of 5 putting them at 6 range.

Support options are a bit more wonky. Protoss have probably the widest range of support. With the Shield Batteries allowing an increase in shield health by 300. Sentries allow for temporary walloffs for free and with enough of then a permanent walloff, every unit you build has 1 armor which makes then moderately durable, and to top it all of shields regen very quickly which means if you do not apply constant pressure you allow Protoss stronger. Zerg have Queens which can Infuse and are just generally good at defense, they are also a safe investment because you use them for creep spread. Terrans are again in a very strange place, they can heal much more but it costs actual resources and mining time. This puts them at an even higher cost then they already were. They really have no support past that without heavy investment.

Up to this point Bunkers cost more for, longer build times, less or comparable DPS, less hit points, less utility, less range, less support options which cost more. Now we get to upgrades, which is pretty strait forward. Photon Cannons have 3 upgrades and Spine Crawlers have none. Bunkers have DEEP BREATH Neo-Steel, Infantry Weapons 1, Infantry Weapons 2, Infantry Weapons 3, Infantry Armor 1, Infantry Armor 2, Infantry Armor 3, Stim, Combat Shields, Concussive Shells, and thats it I think. Here is the biggest strength of the Bunker. It scales amazingly well going from 39.3 DPS to 215.2 DPS.

So what is the issue? The issue is to get that sweet damage, the increased health, the longer range takes a LOT of time, too much time in fact.

The argument is simple. Because Protoss have better support options and quick HP Recovery when not under pressure they survive rushes more often, and as a result they survive longer in tournaments. Zerg are better off due to having upgrades built in to the defensive structures and the support units which translate to mid and late game well. Terrans, however are in a bad place they have to spend a large amount of resources to have a defence 600 minerals for 2 bunkers and 8 Marines to kill 2 zerglings a second. Which is not very good value. That isn’t including repair costs which are minimal, and lost mining time which is not minimal 102 minerals per SCV per minute. 6 SCVs repairing for 30 seconds is a mineral loss of 306 minerals. On top on that you end up with 8 Marines which means if you don’t go Bio, your units are also a bit of a waste. So if you piviot into Bio your opponet will be ready, if you piviot into mech then your going to be between 5-10 units behind.

The question is how do we fix this problem? You can’t boost bunkers because it will be used in bunker rushes. Adding a cheap unit will again be used in rushes.

The only thing I can think to do would be to add a cheap barracks add-on which is a turret. Even that would probably end up turning Rax Rushes into even more BS.

The bunker is more accurately compared to shield batteries. And the bunker in this regard is kinda like if for Protoss you could build a shield battery for 100 minerals and refill the energy for only 25 minerals. Accounting for lost mining time, we can GENEROUSLY say 50 minerals for a refill.

Now for utility, the comparison to the spine is a bit inaccurate. The spine can relocate, but it’s still static defence, which makes it struggle to be useful save for against spines. Terran can fully do away with their early static defence in favor of their more relevant PF as mid and late static defense.

Also, before I forget, your EHP did not account for how cannons have 0 base shield armour. Thus, it’s 660 EHP.

If bunkers need a buff to keep up as static defense (and yeah terran early game is really rough), I would think halving the research time and cost of neosteel armour could do it. Since most proxy bunker attacks don’t involve the early gas needed for that upgrade to work out, but it would make scouted attacks much more holdable.

Finally, I know this is about early rushes, but just as a disclaimer for any terrans saying “terran such bad race, no good static” when it comes to anti-air static Terran is far and gone the best, with cannons at their 22.4, spores at 24.4, and turrets at 39.3 dps.

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Thank you for the reply.

I don’t think Shield Battries are comperable as the extra health is injected to the unit themselves which makes it a non-static defence of sorts. The extra health provided by Bunkers only beneifits units inside the Bunker. The Shield Battery is more like an immobile medivac amd less like a Bunker.

Giving Neosteel half the upgrade time and cost still wont help on defence very much it would still be a noticeable investment with nothing to show for almost a minute. It would also become a part of Bunker Rushes given you only need 2 SCVs on gas for 1 minute to have enough for the upgrade.

As best I can tell you can’t really alter Bunkers too much because doing so will increase the effictiveness of Bunker Rushes.

Sorry to break the bubble, but how a bunker with 4 marines is equivalent with 2 Cannons?
Unless the OP is describing the scenario where a Protoss is building Cannons on a Psi-Field generated by a … Wart-Prism?
Sorry: but all calculations of timings (Cannons can’t be built before the Pylon completes), cost (cannons can’t exist without Pylon) has to be repeated.
Conclusions built over false-premises are usually false.

And Marines can’t be built without Barracks and a supply depot, Zerg can’t build spine crawlers without a spawning pool. The assumption is the buildings are already present because they are so common in builds and are such an integral part of the game. But lets do it anyways. 139 seconds to build a supply depot, Barracks, Bunker, and 4 Marines at 550 Minerals. 1 Pylon, 1 Forge, and 2 cannons build in 79 seconds at 550 minerals. 1 Spawning Pool, and 2 spine crawlers build in 82 seconds at a cost of 550 minerals.

So the point stands.

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I had no intention on bringing Forges, Cybernetics (SB), Barracs, Spawning Pools in the mix. Things get complicated really fast.
Still i am interesting of how you reached on the conclusion that a bunker rush can hit at the the +2 minute-mark (139 sec to be exact).
It is true, when i intend to do a big-battle in the midle of the map or a contain, i fly a WP with Probe and build simmultaneously Cannons, SB, Pylon and a GW for a good measure, but this is not a rush scenario…

No-matter if i agree or disagree with the OP, i am all for the 5-sec rule in strengthening the Defender’s advantage and weakening the cheese and crazy-agression:

  1. All structures in 14 Range of (Hatch/Nexus/CC) are build -5 sec (relative to the nominal-timings)
  2. All other structures: +5 sec (relative to the nomilal-timings)
  3. This does not affect Hatch/Nexus/CC build-timings.

Its about defending againts rushes.

The timing is only part of the problem.

Building something 5 seconds faster only helps if you start your buildings at the same time. If they start before you, or out range your defenses then jt makes no difference.

Not to mention that encourages people to build tightly around thier CC/Nexus/Hive which will make nukes much more powerful.

With the 5-sec rule a Defensive Bunker builds in 29-5=24 sec and an offensive one in 29+5=34.
The same will be applied for Cannons, Pylons, SB, Spines and Spores (and Turrets too).
Structures that require as precondition other structures to be present (Cannons/Pylons) would be doubly-hit in the offensive scenario.

Ask any protoss that has suffered Cannon Rushing (and we are hit more than Terran and Zerg combined) what it is to have your Cannons 5 sec faster and the agressor’s 5 sec latter.
Even a 2-sec rule wold improve the defense of Cannon-Rush in PvP.

But, this in no-way should be a substitute for scouting. Who do not scout (or does poorly) deserves a swift-death from a Cannon-Rush, Bunker-Rush or Spine-Rush…

The problem is its a multi faceted problem. Its not just the build times. Its the range, DPS, resource commitment, resource damage done, utility, support options.

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I understand, and if my first reaction was a little harsh, accept my apologies. For sure there are no simple solutions to complex problems, but if small-changes are done incrementally something can be improved.
I’m afraid that changing DPS on marine/marauders, Cannons, Turrets Spores and Spines would have serious effects even going late-game (Protoss towards late-game increasily uses Static-Defenses and terrans nearly no Bunkers)…

Isn’t protoss the most immune to cannon rush because you can just expand far using the probe scout and recall probes that were trapped in your main base, causing the cannon rushing opponent to waste a lot of minerals on pylon and cannons and get behind in probe count? Terran is far more vulnerable to have scvs trapped because a command center can only carry 5 of them, that is a lot of mining time to lose.

I don’t know. Maybe to a blind CNR without a back-up plan? The most smart and dangerous CNR are not the ones that kill you outright. It messes your plans and put’s you behind while the agressor happily expands and tech-up.
The MaxPax (not a CNR for sure) is a dangerous build because while offering fast-hyper-agression, it allows the agressor also to macro behind with little consequences (compared to the damage dealt early).

A cannon rusher need to press very hard to prevent opponent from getting the tech that can stop it. For terran it is a siege tank (250 gas to reach), while for protoss it only takes a pylon, a shield battery at the backyard and two stalkers (100 gas to reach) then you are completely stalled.

A cannon rusher must push very very hard to prevent the protoss from getting two stalkers, which can be done only by greatly sacrificing economy and flood the enemy base with pylons and cannons.

Except they will stop producing the stalker when your cannons firing on his gateway. Proxy robo immortal and expand is one of the hardest counter against cannon rush as protoss and it is possible because the new nexus can recall probes from the besieged main base. Two immortals in a prism is unstoppable for the cannon rusher with nearly no tech, it is immediate game over.

You will either be shut down and behind in tech for not pressing hard enough, or fall behind in economy by doing so, high level players rarely cannon rush because against people who practiced how to deal with it, it is highly unlikely that the cannon rusher would succeed. Basically, rush itself are rather dependent on the inability of the enemy to properly respond to it (because they have no understanding and never played against it). Most players who never experienced enough of the rush may never know the answer, but the answer is always out there.

Another thing: Bunker costs 4 supply to fill. So If Terran wants to put 4 bunkers/base Protoss/Zerg style, they need to pay 16 supply. Per base.

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Unless you are doing a Bunker-Rush while Maxed-out (!!!) that is completely irrelevant. Supply begins to be relevant when you are Maxed-out or in the process of doing so.
As how effective is to defend a single-base with…4 Bunkers: ask your terran friends for advice.
At the end of the day, even if you are so smart as to defend a base with…4 Bunkers of marines, you when will wise’n-up still can unload the Marines and Salvafe the Bunkers…
Protoss: once comited the Cannons/SB somewhere that is forever.

If only by that phase in the game you had something way better than bunkers. Like maybe planetary fortresses.

As I pointed out before the assumption is that you have the underlying requirements. Getting supply blocked isn’t a sign of imbalance, it’s the sign of a bad player.

not to mention that at thsi state terran mostlikely has atleast 2 orbitals which replaces some of the mining svc so the 16 supply sitting in bunkers doesn’t hurt as much, i mean we are speaking of 1 supply marine here

also it is most liekely that a clever terran doesn’t have those bunkers filled every second and will fill the things up when he is expecting counterattacks with the re-inforcements

4 bunkers per base? if you have the meanst to pay for 4 bunkers per base +16 marines you should have the means to secure those bases otherwise, like hellbats to wardoff lingrunbies f.e. or some siegetanks atleast … if you have choses that bioheavy play you still ned a factory to unlock starports for medivacs and armory to get infantry weapon upgrades, at that point thsoe 16 marines per base are a waste of supply when you have better stuff for defense at hand … like mines, libs, hellbats or tanks f.e.

or that :smiley:

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