Buff toss but make harder to use?

General Discussion
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that way pros can win tourneys with their higher skill while lower leagues wont be as skewed to the a movers things like:

buffing carrier damage but no auto build and you manually have to launch and recall interceptors in which they patrol a zone.

buff charge damage on zealots but no auto cast

shield battery needs to be turned on and off and will drain energy if left on

buff prismatic alignment damage but its single target only with regular cooldown after or if canceled

stalkers have more life but take double damage for 4 seconds after blink

probes have 4 second cool down on warping in a building

disruptors have can move while casting but the nova spawns adjacent to disruptor and you must move the nova

high templars move faster with buff storm damage/radius but storm has a 1 second startup time with a 4 second cool down

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Xd recall ceptors can be activate now just press s on carrier so your suggestion another personal vision without actually playing by toss side

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Also apm never means you skilled sc not arcade sc a rts where if you trade fight in your fave you have chance to win

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I made such suggestions many times (just for fun, its not like anybody is going to do it).

Reduce the cost of Force Field to 30 or even 25.
Undo stupid upgrade time nerf, but make Nexus start with zero energy.
Make WP speed upgrade also increase WP pick-up range by 1. Alternatively, make new upgrade that increases pick up range by 2.
Remove void ray construction time buff.
Make shield battery start with quarter of its energy instead of full.
Make Disruptor put units into stasis like stasis trap instead of killing them.

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Another whine post atleast about disruptors i tired repeat nova can be avoided and if you cant it all player fault and ask on nerf

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I always get suspicious when I see a zergplayer who doesn’t understand toss, post a topic in how to ‘buff toss but make it harder to use’. Mostly it ends up with making it harder to use while the buffing part gets missing but let me see…

Define in how much the buff of the carrier damage is. You only managed to describe on how you would make it harder here… It would be the same as suggesting: make broodlords do more damage but the zergplayer has to constantly create broodlings. Is it one more damage, is it 10 more damage, who knows? Also, would you agree with my ‘buff’ :stuck_out_tongue: ?

Same critique: buff by how much. Again, you only managed to describe how to make it harder.

What is the buff here? You only managed to make it harder.

That is a nerf and you know that very well. in ZvP corruptors often outnumber voidrays. Making them kill one unit faster and then putting it on a cooldown… I’m not even going to bother asking by how much here.

This one could be interesting but again you only managed to describe how to make them take double damage after blink. Again you failed to describe how to make them do more damage and by which amount.

Where is the buff here? I only see you making it harder again.

this is basically the first thing so far that could have some potential (the fact that disruptors won’t be picked off for free), but apparently you don’t know that a disruptor is already a very micro-intensive unit: it isn’t a baneling or a zergling that one can A-move.

This one shows that you clearly don’t understand how protoss and in general psionic storm works: psionic storm has to be able to be cast instantly if you want to hold off zerglings/banelings or damage large amounts of troops. Giving a good player (masters or above) one second to react makes it nothing but a huge nerf, since at that level most of them can execute movement/attack orders in tenths of a second and they would be the main target to pick off.

Suppose you would drop this, my question would again be, by how much? how much damage, and which area?

In this whole post you basically proposed a lot of ways to make it harder for protossplayers, without specifying how to buff them. You know why? Because you are a zergplayer who does not play protoss, who doesn’t understand the race (you can see that after reading a lot of your suggestions) and who probably has an own agenda.

Oh, here is a last little revelation for you: the a-move race in particular is zerg. There are enough memes about that. If you play 10 games as terran or toss vs zerg you will often see zerglings chase a liberator or corruptors chase zealots. Guess how that comes :slight_smile: ? Toss and terran can’t do that (unless they reside in the metal leagues)

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Toss dont chase since most army type was long range unit but yes only protoss know how p race work

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reply to ur questions in order

carrier damage double so they could melt most comps with void ray support. the trade off is positioning, deployment and, engagements become more punishable. i would welcome bet brood lord change too mainly as the max potential of said unit is increased.

1.5-2x on zealots

yes the sb would be harder to use because other units are getting buffs

2x damage on the prismatic alignment. single targeting in tandem with a stronger carrier would kill thors, ultra, corruptors while minimizing the benefit of just mass vr

1.5-1.75x heath and shields on stalkers. again the unit become more of a threat but carelessness is punished.

probe same idea as sb

the idea of a moving disruptor would allow them to zone easier without them being like cyclones. the trade off is you actually have to consider taking engagements with higher friendly fire factor. hell even increase nova radius by 1.5x

1.5x radius and damage on ht. the point is they would be more mobile and deadly but more forethought and map awareness would be needed to use them effectively

lastly on ur lil last blurb. i find it interesting how butthurt you get at just fun thoughts on making the game more dynamic when the tired joke is protoss being, boring, low skill, low apm race

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The main problem with Carrier is that you are unable to control interceptors like zerg can control Locus because the engagement range is too short to put them in any group. So rather than your Brain dead carrier with APM dump. Protoss players would prefer.
– Select interceptors - that would selected all interceptors from selected carriers .
– Ability to add interceptors to Group both if they are outside and inside the carrier.
– Ability to use Chrono on the Carrier.

this would give protoss the ability to pre-group interceptors and control them.

WoW, another Skipper.
So I request the same from you as I requested him.
Please provide a Master/GM ladder replay or Pro replay that shows a player using 10+ zealots with the manual cast (the replay should not be Zealot all-in).

your point is similar to:
Giving Terran a cooldown on bunker salvage and zerg a cooldown on the repositioning of static defense.

There is no point in any of those changes.

Unless you introduce smart targeting (one VR attack one Enemy) your “buff” is a nerf because if multiple VR attacks and kill one target all of them go into cooldown.

VR’s are used mostly to counter flying units (mostly corruptors) that have a tendency to stack those you are unable to manually target individual corruptors.

No Protoss player will tell you that stalkers are weak mid and late game due to having low HP or damage. The problem with Stalkers like most Protoss ranged units is big Overkill.

Overkill is when 2 or more units attack the target but to kill the target you need only one one attack. Second attack in this example will be erased.
for example: if 2 stalkers attack marine but one attack is needed to kill it then the second stalker attack is erased but both Stalkers attacks enter cooldown.

So Blizz should introduce to Protoss firing Range and erase range.

For example:
Stalker has a firing range of 6, erases range of 8, and fires in a line but without pentation.
Example: Hellion/Hellbat, Ghost Snipe

So if 2 Stalkers Fire on the same target and the this target dies due to one stalker damage second stalker damage will be inflicted on the next unit in line.

This change is stupid.

I personally don’t like disruptors because for me its looks more like a gambling unit rather than skill base unit.

I personally would:
– Allow disruptor to move after firing a nova
–Lower radius to 0.5-1.0
–Lower cooldown to 8-15
–Lower damage to 75-100
–Increase nova speed to 6/7
–Increase the cost of disruptor x2 minerals, x2 gas, x1.5 build time

No need to change High Templar.

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First of all, thanks for clarifying the buffs. It would have been a lot easier to judge if it was in the opening post.

I think you best do some testing here because this buff is quite huge. I play all three races and I would not be looking forward to carriers who already have a high DPS it being doubled. I do understand it being impacted much by the nerfs though. Also to make it work you might need shadowstorm his suggestion.

Risky… You do realise if I build 20 zealots with charge and I cast it in your hypothesis they do almost twice as much damage as an immortal? I would definately not be looking forward to this if I was a zergplayer.

not sure about the combo: you are going to enrage a lot of zergplayers with this proposition… and terran players also won’t be happy with this one. Also smart targetting might be necessary here like Shadowstorm suggest, otherwise it keeps being a nerf.

No. Just no: this buff is too strong in the sense it is game-breaking in early PvT. you are giving a protossplayer a 120/120 or 160/160 (more combined HP then an immortal) unit for 125 minerals and 50 gas. If I show up with only stalkers in the first 5 minutes vs a terran player he’s dead with this. Imagine what a proplayer like Parting can do, blinking in 6 stalkers in your main and attacking after 4 seconds, after which he takes a tour and gets them out. Hell, he doesn’t even need to blink in, why not use a warp prism. This would just be hell for terran and zergplayers. You can ask them too if they would this find a good or a bad idea… You did solve shield battery this way though: it would simply be not necessary to build them in the first place.

I’m not buthurt: I just get tired sometimes when I see posts suggesting ‘buffs’ or generalising a race. If one thinks protoss is being boring, lowskill, low apm… one is indoctrinated too much by some of the resident forumtrolls who never played it in the first place :wink: .

Some of the intentions are good, I have to admit but if I already think that some of the proposed buffs are a too strong, prepare for some flak if terran/zerg-only players show up :stuck_out_tongue: . Other suggestions like probes having a cooldown to build a building or rendering the HT useless are just stupid.

2 Likes
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the point of the “apm dump” and the zone @ which the interceptors patrol would be to not only force fights but make engagements more of a commitment at the benefit of the carrier being a harder hitter. just giving control wont change how they would be used

the point of the zealot change is to give them more potential power at the risk of what you call overkill if you just spam charge on a few units.

the vr change would be to discourage massing vr while giving the opportunity to thin stacked herds by insa killing a few target units like the yamato cannon

i like ur stalker change more

if you think the probe change is stupid then scvs should be able to que 5+ buildings without it costing anything until they start building/ factories should allow auto cast for building units. or queens should auto inject and creep tumors should be que spread

the disruptor and ht are pigeonholed the ideas were to open opportunity of at the cost of more forethought

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You all forget apm not help you win since your trade army bad thats why protoss can win witch lower apm you can throw any your changes but untill protoss trade army good you lose

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the variables of these dmg/outputs would ideally be tweaked by 10-30%, with the stalker idea the most farfetched, but you get the idea. stronger units that take more planning and minutia to pull off the full potential. that way pros can perform better but lower leagues need to plan things out more/ higher backfire when not used properly.

when it comes to race generalization you took the words right out of my mouth especially when people say there are a-move zerg memes :wink:

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I was thinking you mean something like Release and Recall interceptors but with current behavior so it would be an APM dump (An ability that is used only used to generate APM and does not provide any other benefit) but you mean Patrol Zone.

By your description, I suspect you mean something like Liberation zone.

–The interceptor damage is 5x2 so you suggesting 10x2 damage.
–There is no positioning because this patrol zone would need to be put in the middle of the Fight due to Interceptors being a unit, not an attack.
– Release and Recall would make Carrier useless due to Viper and Thor.

Charge requires a target and has a range of 4 to trigger. This means that as a player you have to trigger it after Zealot enters range 4. So you would have to trigger 10+ charges on individual units at the same time controlling skills of Disruptor, HT, Sentry, DT, and other units.

You do not discourage massing them because VR damage is not burst damage like Yamato, and VR do not cost the same as Battlecruiser. You make them more of an OP early harassment unit because Prismatic Alignment has damage of 12 vs Armored for 15 seconds.

your change gives us 24 damage per second until the unit/building is dead. This means the unit will be OP vs any Armored Tag. but mostly vs building early one.

–I’m not sure if you know but Terran is able to queue 5+ buildings.
–Resources for buildings are taken because the game needs to make sure you can build buildings.

–The auto-cast is given to units/buildings that:
a) have a single construction unit (Carrier)
b) due to external factors manual Targgeting is impossible (charge)

–Queens:
Have 2 spells
The inject does not have a cooldown. the “cooldown” aka uses of Inject are measured on the Hatchery, so how do you expect Inject to be auto-casted?

Should it be cast until Queen does not have energy?
Or heal should be casted before Inject?

–Tumors
Tumor does not have buildings like Barracks that would allow queuing.
How do you expect Tumors to queue spread without Creep?

–The current disruptor is:

The disruptor is stationary.
Nova spawns adjacent to the disruptor and then travels to a specific location.
The player can control nova.

So other than the stationary part what change for the disruptor?

–HT does not require any change.

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I think nerf toss and make a bit of micro required.

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The overall concept here is very sound, I don’t think any Protoss player can directly disagree with increasing the skill ceiling of Protoss but increasing the difficulty of the race. However, the ideas presented are all absolutely garbage. The ideas I would have to change Protoss into a more interesting and difficult race are:

Either reintroduce the MSC or make a “orbital nexus.” The MSC comes with recall, battery overcharge and time warp. This introduces increased decision making from Protoss where they can either make a defensive unit or opt for faster tech instead of having both at the same time like now. Putting recall behind the MSC also prevents Protoss players from recalling without planning in advance, letting the good and bad players more able to distinguish themselves. The “orbital nexus” is essentially just a nexus upgrade to unlock recall and battery overcharge, if the MSC is too distasteful for some people.

Buff the adept and nerf the chargelot. Firstly, the zealot should be completely reverted to the HotS version. It is one of the lowest skill, most uninteresting units in the game. However, it’s a very core unit to Protoss, so a more interesting unit like the adept should take it’s place. Just a health increase for it is probably fine, though I’m not sure by how much exactly.

And finally, nerf the carrier into the ground. Just like at the end of 2019 when the broodlord was nerfed into almost being a non viable unit, now only made in the extreme late game when you’re replacing your former late game army, the carrier should get similar treatment. ZvX late game was so boring and so easy to play from the Zerg end of things, but now late game ZvT revolves around winning through mobility and late game ZvP has a very high skill ceiling. I want the same for Protoss here, where they have to innovate a proper late game using more difficult to control units.

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Lol nerfed a unit who was shade own glory power man l2p please zerg have all tool to win sky toss such as fungal kill voids plus parasit bomb for sure end vr so only what left are carrier you have de shroud and about of ht drop fungal right on ht then shroud

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Yes the carrier and zealot would have greater weakness with a power trade off that would fundamentally change the way you engage with and the total comp of the army, opening the possibilities of more gateway+stargate/ robo+stargate type builds. Yes the vr would most likely be abused which it could be argued moved pr to an upgrade ability or weakened ability on structures, but the idea of allowing units like the vr to take on power roles that suppliment against things like viper, Thor, bc, rather than just melt armored would allow for larger scope of play but those other scopes would respectively need to be buffed which is where the stalker idea originally came form albeit a bit extreme

The scv que is meaningless if it takes the resources before the buildings start because of the downtime of locked capital. Albeit small adding a speed bump that discourages building dumps would make expo planning take a bit more forethought and cannon rushing more of a commitment
The queen auto cast could be like wc3 where it auto injects nearest hatchery until energy is gone so there would be decidated inject queens. But that would be absurdly lazy. The creep tumor could be qued up as a predicted path and placement just like a pylon showing where the area is. The tumor would too before placement so you could que up a whole path as. there is no variance on the creep size just the time it takes. and if it’s killed the que would stop. But again that would be as lazy as a 1 probe queuing up 6 buildings that won’t take resources until building starts

The Templar and disruptor could stay or be changed but if you change generalized roles of untis like carrier or vr other options of play would need to be expanded on.

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You are the only person who whine here

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Nah i keep silent and watch

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