Which is the best choice when using Mengsk’s first bunker drop ? (Only apply with full 30 point into Starting Mandate)
- Get 6 workers to saturate your mineral line.
- Clearing rocks or enemy units expansion.
I’ll say it’s mission/macro dependent. To wit:
Some missions (Miner Evac, Chain of Ascention, Shard of Amon) the contested expos are far enough away that trying to get a bunker there for fast-clearing is more of a pain than it’s worth, the bunker’s better “at home” supplementing the early income, while on others (especially the rock-slapping ones) if the player’s macro is strong enough to maintain two super-early bases, dropping the bunker for early rock clears then going fast expo is the way to go - though be ready to use that “turn worker back into combatant” power as it was seemingly intended to be used…
Definitely better to use them to mine minerals. Better to use them to pay to rally a bunch of troopers directly to your expansion (and for the expansion itself) than to actually use them to shoot the rocks.
1 Like
I’d usually go fast expand for uncontested otherwise in main.
Hmm… interesting. Got the maths handy to show this?
It REALLY depends upon the map. If you have an uncontested rock expansion, then use it for that. If your expansion is contested, except for Cradle, use it for your main, then save mandate for Level 2 Dogs of War to clear your expansion.
Saturate… you can’t expand without 400 minerals
Saturate, then when you have near 400 minerals turn some into troopers and expand*.
That was why they nerfed it… you can have defense/expansion AND economy all in one.
- If rocks, otherwise the calculus changes
This.
Also extra 6 workers allow to rush for witnesses and spam mandate.
So many forget that workers and troopers can change, this also applies in battle.
1 Like
Map dependent, if you just have rocks to clear, then call down your bunker to clear rocks, save to 300 and when the rocks are cleared, you SALVAGE THE BUNKER to get to 400, as the bunker is salvaging, you turn your troopers back to workers and multi worker build that command center, then you build a 3rd one in your base and saturate super fast.
If you can’t take your expand asap then you just saturate fast with bunker.
Mineral line of course, there’s absolutely no reason to clear rocks asap since you can build offsite as Terran AND you have swann scv multibuild ability
1 Like
- Saturate main with first bunker drop.
- When minerals on main is saturated, rally troopers to clear rocks.
- Drop second bunker near natural, turn ~10 troopers into workers and build CC and the rest clear rocks for gas.
- Build Refineries and rush upgraded Witness
- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
- PROFIT
1 Like
If ypu want a build that you can use regardless of the map, go 6 workers to saturate then make troopers to clear expo.
But dropping a bunker on contested maps are not bad, with the exception of these 4 maps: Scythe of Amon, Miner’s Evacuation, that map with General Davis(forgot name) and Chain of Ascension, not only they’re tricky to pull off, but they take time as well.
Does anyone have links to data on this, or do we not have a full analysis yet?
Edit: @Maguro, @CtG, either of you planning or done any analysis?
I usually clear my ally’s rocks first if uncontested. In between clearing the rocks I send the troops back to deal with the attack wave when it arrives along with 6 more from my mineral line. Then I go clear my rocks and fast-build all of my key structures.
Well, by rough algebraic estimate
Your EC produces 7.5 workers/minute, burning a total of 300 minerals/minute. Workers 1-14 will mine roughly 40 minerals/minute, and workers 15-21 will mine steadily less, averaging 20 mineral/minute across that range. For workers 15-19, we will assume 25/minute is a pretty good estimate. You will also need to build your second depot starting at 1:00 at the latest.
Bunker on Rocks:
With the first method of dropping the bunker at the rocks, you will get up to 19 workers at just before 1 minute, and have your troopers build a second depot around then. Thus, you will have spent 420 minerals total by 1:00.
The initial 12 workers have mined 480 minerals and, with earlier workers having mined longer we’ll assume 15-19 to be 30 mins/minutes, have mined roughly 120 minerals more. 600 mined + 50 starting - 420 spent = 230 minerals at 1 minute.
Meanwhile, at 1:00 your troopers have dealt 6 troopers * 60 seconds * 6.9767 dps = 2,500 damage, meaning they have already killed the main rocks and are a quarter of the way through the nat rocks, and are building a depot in 5 seconds flat.
Our limiting factor here is minerals, not rock hp, and it will take another 170 minerals needed/385 net minerals/minute (still making troopers) = 0.44 minutes = 26.5 seconds waiting for minerals (during which time you mostly finish off the remaining rock hp). If you rally to the expo after 19/21 the tenth guy should get there as you start the EC, meaning your expansion is up at about 1:40.
Bunker mining main:
Here you essentially start with 19 workers. Since the 19th worker mines relatively little, it is acceptable to leave the 8 seconds it took to be made as a footnote. This means you are mining 385 net minerals/minute with worker production off the bat, meaning you have minerals for an EC at 400 minerals - 50 starting minerals + 100 depot minerals/ 385 minerals/minute = 1.16 minutes = 1:10.
The limiting factor here is almost certainly rock killing time, but travel time for troopers makes it a bit tricky. For simplicity, I will assume a travel time of 8 seconds. A bit generous, but not unreasonable for some maps. This means a trooper will hit at 24 seconds and every 8 seconds after that.
We can model the rock killing with (x/2) * 8x * 6.9767 dps = 2000hp, where x is the final number of troopers we reach. Solving for x gives x = sqrt(2000/(4*6.9767s)) = 8.46 troopers. This is an underestimate since it assumes we gradually gain partial troopers, so we will assume trooper #9 shows up a little before the rocks die. Our 0 trooper point was 16 seconds so that means 9 * 8 seconds + 16 seconds = 88 seconds = 1:28. Trooper #10 is not here yet, so we’ll say we finish our CC at 1:45.
Conclusion:
If we go to 19 workers, putting our first bunker of dudes on mining will only delay the CC by 5 seconds, and it’s very dubious to say our estimate is accurate to the 5 seconds. Meanwhile, mining first leaves us with far more total minerals mined. However, it will leave gas rocks 100% intact. Further, sending troopers at rocks right away waited on minerals, and sending them to mine right away waited on rock damage, so optimal has to be somewhere in between.
For example, sending 2 troopers to shoot rocks immediately and only going to 18 workers would probably end up getting up our expansion several seconds earlier than either extreme. Personally, for expo first Mengsk, I would probably recommend simply not building any workers at first, instead dropping a bunker down to mostly saturate and rallying every trooper from the EC immediately to rocks.
Personally however, I prefer to tech first, which is more a question of gas vs. minerals since fast teching is the natural follow to double gas right off the bat. It also means an earlier fusion core, which is important because the fusion core has to do 3 minutes worth of upgrades for witnesses and interecessors.
1 Like
I would say saturate the mineral line is the better option. You won’t have any resources to build a second enlistment centre if you do it too soon anyway.
Then your timings are off. Around 30 supply, I am easily able to drop my Enlistment center. You forego tech and gas, but it’s worth it. Immediately after dropping your expansion, you drop double gas and go from there.
I think my count is usually 30 by then.
And if you dropped your first bunker at the rocks, you will have had time to kill all the rocks and build a depot with your troopers and still have time for your troopers to get a quick coffee break for 30 supply.
wait so using my first bunker drop to rush vespene extractors is wrong? I always go for a royal guard build.
On the trainmap, especially if my ally isnt very strong on rockclearing early on, i just use the zerg to clear all of our rocks and let them already scout for the enemy comp.
Im stuck early on at 15/15 supply and im not even sure if its good or bad. But it works for me very well.
The second time i get 25 energy is for a bunker near the expo that turns into workers and gets to finish the expo cc.
The third time i get to 25 energy is when the train comes -> gets zerg’d if needed.
Gas first is another option. Kill rocks first v Mine first is a “how fast to expand?” option.