Benchmarking CPUs for SC2

Upatree recently promoted the 9800x3d as a great CPU for SC2. It does seem to perform very well, but is it the best? While I can’t test SC2 on anything but my own PC, it might still be interesting since I have a 7950x and the 7950x is currently cheaper than the 9800x3d but touts ~36% more multi-core performance.

UpATree starts his benchmark at 51:42 in his stream and clicks x8 at 1 second in the replay. He reaches 3:53 in the replay at 52:11 on his stream. That’s 232 replay-seconds simulated in 29 seconds for 8 replay-seconds/second.

Well I hopped into a replay of a game I played vs Astrea and timed it on my phone. I got 3:58 in 29 seconds which is 8.2 replay-seconds/second.

Since the 7950x seems to be slightly outperforming the 9800x3d, but touts 36% better multi core performance with a lower price tag, it seems the 7950x is a better buy. The 9950x is almost assuredly much better than either of these.

Interestingly, Passmark reports the 9800x3d is supposed to outperform the 7950x in single-core, which means it should be faster at SC2 if SC2 benefits from the extra cache of the x3d chip. The difference between expected and actual performance is 6.2%. This seems to indicate SC2 performs worse on the x3d chips. But, to do a true 1:1 comparison, you’d have to test the 7950x vs the 7950x3d.

But there is another way to interpret the difference: Upatree’s CPU might be performing worse than it’s supposed to, or mine might be performing better. Both CPUs would run SC2 great but I’d argue there is a clear winner in terms of value and peak performance. The best CPU for SC2 is almost certainly the 9950x but the 7950x is a good budget substitute.

so you guys are testing cpus by watching replays? are you trying to fast forward through them to see how fast the cpu fast forwards through them. like your speaking a bunch of technical jargon in your post but your not really explaining how your actually testing them.

Yeah benchmarking to see how fast it can simulate at 8x. Bottlenecked CPUs can’t do 8x speed at actual 8x speed.

You’d think the fastest at 8x speed would be 8 in game seconds every second, but SC2 time is slightly faster than normal time. It’s about 2.5% faster. So, a CPU that isn’t bottle necked would run the replays at 8.2x replay seconds for every real second. I timed upatree using his stream and his CPU was screaming along at 8x speed. Impressive, but not as fast as possible. That award goes to the 7950x.

The result was a bit counter intuitive because how can 8x speed produce 8.2x game seconds per second? But then my software engineer experience kicked in and I realized SC2 has a game timer that it increments at intervals and it’s not perfectly match real time. So I did a google search and found other people who had benchmarked it in the past and found it was … drumroll please … 2-3% faster than real time, which is exactly what my benchmark found.

We’re SC2 players… I have a 3950x and just play on low detail.

Yeah any CPU these days will run SC2 almost flawlessly. I am just basking in the glorious light of victory.

Try winning a game upside down. You’ll never have the bragging rights.

Anything to keep the game fresh. Everything would be more or less normal except for the mouse direction and maybe where you look to see the minimap.

The first time trying it I’d have a hard time. Second time, I would make a few mistakes and pause a couple times. Third time, it would be like I was born to do it.

This reminds me of a buddy I have who is a minecraft youtuber. There is a mod that adds wine to the game. When you drink it, it gives you some stat buffs but if you drink too much it gives a debuff tag called “Inebriated”. It makes your entire screen tilt and wobble and run sideways. I keep trying to convince him to do a minecraft series where he has a jug of wine that never runs out. He’s required to play the entire game through with the Inebriated tag. Then, he plays through the game with the IRL inebriated tag. THEN he does it with both. It would be glorious.

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You should always do it with the same software and hardware (except for the component you’re comparing performance of) and same tests - so the same replay. Besides the fact that, the more actions there are in a replay, the longer it takes to compute, all PCs can perform differently depending on other hardware components, and the software on there.

But, definitely would say that the performance difference between the two is fairly negligible :stuck_out_tongue:

Is 2025, we have now Intel series 14th and 15th-gen chips! What you mention is too old, this is my opinion!

The problem with intel is that they’ve had a lot of hardware bugs that create security vulnerabilities. The patches require workarounds that decrease CPU speed. Additionally, some of their CPUs are having issues with over heating causing the CPU to degrade over time. If you buy a fast intel cpu, there is no guarantee the performance won’t degrade.

are you insane, the 9950x’s are some of the newest gens of ryzens you can get, matching said intel cpu both in years and performance and out performing intel cpus in every aspect so far, not to mention cheaper than intels. topped off with all the the problems intel is faceing with those specific cpus. yeah seriously you gotta be out your mind.

This Thread was made by Sal/Upatree and Batz got BTFO for his total lack of computer knowledge and tech illiteracy, and in typical narcisisstic fashion has to make the same thread posting all of his BS and general mis understanding on how stat weights work.

" This post is so confidently wrong I’m sure it was written by GPT.

Clock rate is influenced by core temp, which is indiscriminate of type of cooling (air cooling and liquid cooling do technically have different behaviours, but ryzen chips are so effecient it generally doesn’t matter). The clocks on x3d chips run lower in order to not cook the cache. The cache is worth more in simulation and RTS games than clock speed. The fact that you think single and multi core clocks shouldn’t be different, when AMD and intel have listed the two separately for actual years, suggests you should stop giving tech advice and stick to being fun to play on the ladder.

The 9800x3d is generally sold out in the US, you can buy it for MSRP in Canada and other places that allow back order.

I hope absolutely 0 people read this post with any amount of critical thought. "


" Userbenchmark is actual trash, they are intel shills, and their benchmarks don’t line up with anyone else.

You have a fundamental and clear misunderstanding of how good v-cache is. A clear misunderstanding of what it does, and are just spouting random gibberish. Clock rates are just a number, there were 4.1ghz cpus years ago, but the 5700x3d demolishes older chips that could hit that because of v-cache and ipc improvements.

You may have built a water block, but you don’t understand CPUs. That much is abundantly clear. There’s a post on reddit that showed a guy getting 1.5x more frames in sc2 by going from 5800x → 5800x3d. The pathing algorithms, physics engines, etc, all heavily rely on cache. This much is clear from all the games that substantially benefit from the cache, take for example factorio.

The paragraph you have telling me that one data point doesn’t tell you anything is mind numbing. I’ve been using the machine for 2 weeks now, the performance is double or more.

You need to give GPT a raise. I won’t be responding again. "

GET REKT SON.

  • Is told his CPU is probably overheating.
  • Proceeds to thermally-throttle his CPU on live stream.
  • Still thinks he won the debate.

Passmark, phoronix, openbenchmark and Userbenchmark all agree the x3d variants are slower. Additionally, the 7950x is a better CPU than the 5900x3d both in performance and cost. Upatree made a bad recommendation, got called out, and was too immature to admit he was wrong.

As a software engineer who has studied computer science, I know very well how computers work and even better how the algorithms are implemented on top of the CPU logic. There was a 99.9% chance SC2 wasn’t optimized to take advantage of the larger cache of the x3d chips. I know this because I used to hand optimize code in assembly for video games and scientific computations well over 15 years in the past. To this day, I still do it on occasion for projects that use atmega CPUs or ARM cpus.

In fact, algorithms like the A* pathfinding, and others, would probably still overflow the cache if they were implemented using an method that took advantage of the cache (such as function recursion). So even if it SC2 were optimized to take advantage of more cache, it’s likely the bulk of the algorithms would still be faster and more stable if they were implemented using sorted list.

Optimizing an algorithm to take advantage of a specific CPU’s cache would require intricate knowledge of the cache replacement scheme. There isn’t a CEO on the planet that is going to sign off on the time investment to hand optimize SC2 for 1 CPU variant.

The openbenchmark result in particular is absolutely darning to the x3d chip variants because they use 658 real-world programs like Blender and 7zip and BRL-cad. This absolutely demolishes upatree’s claim that the passmark/userbenchmark results are invalid because they are “artificial” tests.

The 5900x3d can run SC2 very well BUT it is not the best CPU nor is it the best value nor it is the cheapest CPU. It’s not really anything remarkable. It’s a “meh” cpu.

People are really trying to defend their affiliate programs and the biggest irony is that it doesn’t matter at all in SC2. Even if you have the best computer on the planet the sc2 engine still operates at a speed that both parties can handle. UpaTree needs all of his 4900 MMR opponents to spend $1500 so they can all run high end sc2.

It’s not my place to question people’s hobbies; but optimizing cpu choice for a game from 2010 that could be run by a Samsung refrigerator?

It doesn’t matter at all for most people. It mattered to me because I read a post on reddit where a guy talked about his pc building experience, was able to recognize he was having over heating issues, and this guy proceeded to curse me out for 2 hours straight on his twitch stream. For the great crime of giving the guy some advice, he defamed and slandered me in front of 200 people. So now I have a personal stake in making sure everyone understands the x3d CPU variants are not the best purchase. Hopefully we can educate some young gamers on the proper way to analyze market trends (using data, from multiple sources, and questioning the biases of said sources) as well as treating celebrity endorsements as if they have a negative correlation with quality (because they generally do).

Generally the way I analyze data from multiple sources is to rank them based on bias displayed from 1 to 10. If their methodology is flawed, they rank lower. If they display favoritism, I rank them lower. I then average their scores by weighting their bias. Let’s say we have 3 sources and one scores a 1 and the other a 5 and the other a 9. Let’s say the first says the 5900x3d is a 10, the next an 8, and the last a 6. We first add up their bias scores and divide each bias by the total. That’s 1+5+9=15. The weights are then 1/15, 5/15, 9/15. We multiply these weights by their reported scores for the CPUs, and average it. that’s 1/15*10=0.67, 5/15*5=1.67, 9/15=3.6. The average is the sum of these numbers: 5.94.

If we averaged this normally, we’d come to a score of 8. That’s because we didn’t weight the results to account for bias. This test simply gives more weight to the data sources that display less bias. How do you score their bias? You do a questionaire like this:

  1. How many times do they employ preferential reasoning for a conclusion?
  2. Is the sample size large and robust?
  3. Are there flaws in their methodology?
  4. Do they have a motivation to be biased?
  5. Do they disclose their bias and take measures to mitigate their bias (blinding etc)?

For every instance where they display bias, it counts as a 0 and as a 1 otherwise. You then add up these scores for each data source, normalize all the scores to a 1-10 scale. You can do this by subtracting the minimum score from all scores, then dividing by the range in scores (max score minus min score) then multiplying all of them by 10.

Let’s say a data source displays bias three times. Let’s say they used a small sample. Let’s say their methodology was flawed in 2 ways. Let’s say they admit they are biased, and that they make an effort to minimize it. That’s 0+0+0 + 0 + 0+0 + 1 + 1 = 2. Now let’s say we did the same thing for 2 other sources and they scored 4 and 7. To normalize this, we’d simply subtract the smallest score from all scores so that they become 0, 2, 5, then divide everything by the largest to get 0, 0.4, and 1, which we multiply by 10 to get 0, 4, and 10. Next, we account for our own bias by adding 1 to the lowest score and subtracting 1 from the highest to get 1, 4, 9. Then we perform the test as detailed above.

What’s brilliant about this method is that the sources that display obvious bias will count for less in the final score. If someone says 10 out of 10 or 0 out of 10, it won’t matter if their bias score is 1 out of 10 – in a group of bias scores 1, 9, 9, the 1 would contribute to 5% of the average instead of 33%. So what you’d be saying if you applied this test is that you are going to assign more importance to the less biased sources and less importance to the more biased sources.

Let’s do this for one of the sources provided by upatree.

  • Starts the videos with sponsors. Indicates a financial bias.
  • Immediately find a flaw in his methodology. He says the best way to test CPU performance is by keeping the GPU constant across all tests (randomized hardware assortment is a better indication).
  • He’s testing with different RAM types for each, an obvious flaw in methodology.
  • He doesn’t test multiple CPUs for each test (could be a bad CPU).
  • He doesn’t test on multiple operating systems.
  • He does test across a broad range of games.
  • He doesn’t test a varying rendering resolutions.
  • He mentions the power consumption is higher for the i9, makes no effort to account for this as a source of bias.
  • No indication on if the same CPU cooler is used.
  • He gives a budget recommendation as an alternative to the 5900x3d.
  • He makes no attempt to measure the standard mean error.

Total score: 0+0+0+0+0+0+1+0+0+0+1+0= 2. A very low objectivity score.

Let’s do the same for passmark:

  • No sponsors.
  • GPU is randomized across tests.
  • RAM is randomized across tests.
  • CPU cooler is randomized across tests.
  • Multiple CPUs are tested.
  • Multiple operating systems are tested.
  • A broad range of tests are used.
  • A broad range of resolutions are used.
  • Passmark makes a range of recommendations for varying budgets.
  • Passmark measures the standard mean error.

1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=10.

That’s how you measure bias. You do the process as normal from here.

Speaking of replays I always thought it was funny that they gave you an option to “skip” to the timestamp you want, but in reality it just fast forwards to that time while NOT showing you what’s happening in the game. While going at x8 speed generally shows you everything happening unless your PC is overworked it starts to get choppy.

Like it’s been so long I can hardily even remember but didn’t DVD technology have the ability to actually skip to whatever scene you wanted properly without having to go through the entire disc? How can that somehow work better than SC2?

Maybe I’m wrong I just chuckle thinking about it. God forbid I try to skip to the end to see something in a 25 minute replay. I might as well turn the kettle on and use the washroom waiting lmao.

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Yeah the inability to jump to a spot instantly means the replay doesn’t save the game state at set intervals, it only saves the actions taken by the players so it has to reconstruct the game from all the actions. Really what it ought to do is save the entire game state at 1 minute intervals and then reconstruct the game state from any events that happen after those points. Then it will instantly hop to minute 12 and then simulate to 35 seconds or whatever. It could be the devs never got around to it, it wasn’t mandated in the spec document, or there was something about the game state that is hard to replicate without creating a very slightly different game state (due to complex internal game engine features which would’ve been a huge pain to diagnose and fix).

An obvious method for potentially counter acting or mitigating this would be to use water cooling and keep the CPU as cold as possible. So my recommendation with a top of the line intel core i9 would be to buy a quality water block and use a double-pump in series. Flowrate is usually restricted by resistance and that means to get higher water volume you have to have higher pressure. Pumps in series add their pressure. In a situation where there is no back pressure and the water moves at maximum velocity, it’s better to run in parallel. But since the definition of a good CPU cooler is tons of surface area, it’s going to have back pressure. Double pump will provide a pretty big increase in the amount of water flowing through the block, which means the copper will be closer to room temp and that means heat leaves the CPU faster.

Here is what I mean.. 2 pumps, one feeding into the other. I made a mistake here and it’s better to separate the pumps by a small length of soft tubing because then there is no chance the vibration from the pumps create a resonance. If they are decoupled, the pumps will vibrate independently of one another. Luckily it wasn’t an issue for me, but it did end up being an issue on another project. It’s not pretty but I am an engineer so I only care about functionality. Bonus, a custom water block prototype.

I also recommend using high quality nitrile orings and lubricating them during assembly with a bit of silicone grease. The limiting factor on clamping pressure is the friction between the gasket and the fitting, which means if you over-tighten what can happen is that the oring binds and stretches, which ironically opens up a gap that causes leaks. If the coefficient of friction is lower, you are less likely to have this issue & you can achieve higher clamping forces. It also fights oxidation of the rubber, since the oxygen has to travel through a protective layer of oil first, and that means you are less likely to have a cracked oring a couple years down the road. The quality of the rubber can vary a bit even within the same batch, so the probability of a one off leak is a lot lower if you lube the orings. Additionally, the oil might seal micro-imperfections in the orings which again just reduces the odds of a leak later on. I wouldn’t use anything except silicone oil for this.

It’s already been tested, the extra cache can significantly benefit SC2. A person tested 2v2 on a 5800x and 5800x3d, and had a 50% increase in 1% lows. Here’s the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/127tpmc/3d_vcache_and_sc2_part_two_ryzen_7950x3d_results/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button